Do officers have a duty to not enforce unconstitutional laws?

spoon059 · Nov 18, 2018

AlBeight said:
Who gets to decide the law is “unconstitutional”? Is it actually unconstitutional or is it in your beliefs and ethics unconstitutional? I may be down a semantic rabbit hole here, but I think people get revved up a little too hard when you phrase it as a point of fact that the law is “unconstitutional”.

Exactly. The State of Maryland has an Attorney General who has ruled that this is constitutional. Each county has an Assistant State's Attorney, each of whom has agreed that this is constitutional. Each county also has a Legal Department, all of whom have agreed this is constitutional. There are many incorporated cities with their own legal departments and police departments, each of whom have agreed its constitutional.

I would LOVE for someone to push a case and get federal courts, and eventually the Supreme Court, to make a final determination. Until then, this law has passed muster from numerous layers of legal teams before a policy was inacted by my (And other) police departments.

Lets not forget that just 60 years ago, lots of southern jurisdictions thought that "separate but equal" was and should continue to be legal. Thankfully the Supreme Court ruled it in Brown v Board of Education. It is not up to individual officers to make a determination about what laws they feel are or aren't Constitutional. It is up to the COURTS to make these decisions. Vilifying officers for following a law is a lazy criticism.

Comparing officers taking away guns from someone that has been determined to likely be a threat to a Nazi officer that murdered innocent civilians is asinine.

StantonCree · Nov 18, 2018

44man said:
I am pretty sure I can constitutionally take the 5 th if I was asked that question.

But I have always said it’s better to be judged by twelve than carried by six.

And I am not on any high horse, and I believe I am entitled to my opinion just as everyone else is.

How do you feel about the cops in the OP keeping to their oaths to defend the constitution and not to enforce unconstitutional laws?

I’ll counter your question with a question

Would you prefer a largely high school only educated populous determining what’s constitutional and not on the side of the road?

I’ll use me as an example. I tried to drop out of high school cuz I don’t excel at things i dislike. I was placed into the work studies program where i got to leave at 11 and go to a job i liked. I went to Frostburg (not exactly Ivy League). I was actually kicked out due to grades. I then went to Allegheny College of MD where i got a 4.0 for my only semester there before being reinstated into Frostburg. I never got less than a 3.5 after that but I’ll admit with summer/winter classes college basically took me 5 years......i had a lot of fun lol.

Would you like someone like me determining the constitutionality of laws?

Edit- I get your point but it’s best to let the highly educated determine what’s constitutional. I’ve seen cops do some very stupid things. I once locked an entire entry team in the house we were hitting on a search warrant with all of our tools outside on the steps available to be stolen. I once seized a crack stash and put it in my pocket to go put on the found property book. I then responded to assist a Sgt and the drug dog on scene Hit on my pocket (thank god too cuz i forgot it was there lol)

Double edit— i once left my gun in the secure lock box at a juvenile processing center and patrolled for 5 hours with no gun (traffic stops and answering calls for service). I’m human and great at what i do despite the couple mishaps above but you don’t want me determining the constitution

teratos · Nov 18, 2018

StantonCree said:
I’ll counter your question with a question

Would you prefer a largely high school only educated populous determining what’s constitutional and not on the side of the road?

I’ll use me as an example. I tried to drop out of high school cuz I don’t excel at things i dislike. I was placed into the work studies program where i got to leave at 11 and go to a job i liked. I went to Frostburg (not exactly Ivy League). I was actually kicked out due to grades. I then went to Allegheny College of MD where i got a 4.0 for my only semester there before being reinstated into Frostburg. I never got less than a 3.5 after that but I’ll admit with summer/winter classes college basically took me 5 years......i had a lot of fun lol.

Would you like someone like me determining the constitutionality of laws?

The Constitution was intended to be understood by The People before high schools existed. The Bill of Rights should be easy for the average beat cop to understand. Especially the Second Amendment. Imma type this slow for you, so follow along:

The right of The People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

Ask yourself, is going door to door taking people’s guns an infringement? We can simplify it even more:

If The People did not grant the government the Power to infringe on the right of Johnny to have a gun, does my jackbooted ass have the right to take Johnny’s gun?

Put that in your pipe and smoke it, noobie.

StantonCree · Nov 18, 2018

teratos said:
The Constitution was intended to be understood by The People before high schools existed. The Bill of Rights should be easy for the average beat cop to understand. Especially the Second Amendment. Imma type this slow for you, so follow along:

The right of The People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

Ask yourself, is going door to door taking people’s guns an infringement? We can simplify it even more:

If The People did not grant the government the Power to infringe on the right of Johnny to have a gun, does my jackbooted ass have the right to take Johnny’s gun?

Put that in your pipe and smoke it, noobie.

Lol haven’t been called a Noob here or professionally in a long time. Of course i think door to door confiscation is an infringement but with court rulings the 2A is much more complicated than that. I too would love a black and white response to a multitude of issues but we both know it ain’t that simple Doc.

44man · Nov 18, 2018

StantonCree said:
I’ll counter your question with a question

Would you prefer a largely high school only educated populous determining what’s constitutional and not on the side of the road?

I’ll use me as an example. I tried to drop out of high school cuz I don’t excel at things i dislike. I was placed into the work studies program where i got to leave at 11 and go to a job i liked. I went to Frostburg (not exactly Ivy League). I was actually kicked out due to grades. I then went to Allegheny College of MD where i got a 4.0 for my only semester there before being reinstated into Frostburg. I never got less than a 3.5 after that but I’ll admit with summer/winter classes college basically took me 5 years......i had a lot of fun lol.

Would you like someone like me determining the constitutionality of laws?

What we have now is cops accepting what they’ve been told is constitutional whether they believe it or not and enforcing what they’ve been told is constitutional whether they believe it or not.

Once upon a Time I believe cops knew anything and everything about laws. Now it seems laws are more political than practical and there are so much ******** involved with being a cop that I don’t know why anyone would want to do it when what they are supposed to do changes like the wind.

Back to the question I would assume those police chiefs who say they will not break their oaths have informed their officers what laws to and not to enforce so they aren’t doing it on the side of the road.

Edit, damn you wrote a lot after I started typing, lol

I used to shoot every day and I kept dozens and dozens of guns in my trucks and cars and never had an idea what I had where, but I don’t do that anymore because I am scared someone would steal them or I would get pulled over and nowadays it would be hard to explain having 15-20 guns and boxes of ammo in my truck.

I was pulled over back in the early 80’s and the cop gave me a speeding ticket and asked afterwards why in the hell I had so many guns in the truck, I explained and he just said “ don’t go near town boy “ and he laughed. I am sure that would not happen now

teratos · Nov 18, 2018

StantonCree said:
Lol haven’t been called a Noob here or professionally in a long time. Of course i think door to door confiscation is an infringement but with court rulings the 2A is much more complicated than that. I too would love a black and white response to a multitude of issues but we both know it ain’t that simple Doc.

I know, but it gave me an opportunity to be obnoxious. Besides, noob, I just figured out who you were yesterday when it became obvious who you were.

StantonCree · Nov 18, 2018

44man said:
What we have now is cops accepting what they’ve been told is constitutional whether they believe it or not and enforcing what they’ve been told is constitutional whether they believe it or not.

Once upon a Time I believe cops knew anything and everything about laws. Now it seems laws are more political than practical and there are so much ******** involved with being a cop that I don’t know why anyone would want to do it when what they are supposed to do changes like the wind.

Back to the question I would assume those police chiefs who say they will not break their oaths have informed their officers what laws to and not to enforce so they aren’t doing it on the side of the road.

They are mostly Sheriffs so let’s be honest their decisions not to enforce are just as political. In the OP’s link the article is largely lacking of what was fully in the bill but it appears the only thing the Sheriff won’t actually enforce is Possibly the “Safe Storage Provision”

StantonCree · Nov 18, 2018

teratos said:
I know, but it gave me an opportunity to be obnoxious. Besides, noob, I just figured out who you were yesterday when it became obvious who you were.

Lol i mentioned it in other threads, not trying to hide it

44man · Nov 18, 2018

StantonCree said:
They are mostly Sheriffs so let’s be honest their decisions not to enforce are just as political. In the OP’s link the article is largely lacking of what was fully in the bill but it appears the only thing the Sheriff won’t actually enforce is Possibly the “Safe Storage Provision”

True they are mostly sheriffs, but they are generally elected and need to keep on the good side of their constituents if they want to be re-elected so if their constituents want them to not enforce certain laws they are more likely to do so than someone appointed by a governor or city mayor.

StantonCree · Nov 18, 2018

44man said:
True they are mostly sheriffs, but they are generally elected and need to keep on the good side of their constituents if they want to be re-elected so if their constituents want them to not enforce certain laws they are more likely to do so than someone appointed by a governor or city mayor.

Oh we are on the same page there. I get it, i do. I’m in the same boat as everyone here i also just deal with the “infringement” side as well. One thing i can promise you is you don’t want people like me determining what is constitutional. Lol I’ll admit I’m charged with enforcing the laws but I’d bet my next paycheck CypherPunk knows 10X more about my jurisdictions gun laws than i do. I bet PBHarvey or Stoveman knows 10X more about parking laws in my jurisdiction than me. I can’t be expected to know the ins/outs of every law there are 58 billion of them. In my current situation i could spend hours discussing CCTV application by Gov and ABA recommendations/guidelines but ask me the fine for not using a turn signal or the code for no insurance and I’m calling someone lol

StantonCree · Nov 18, 2018

Lastly I’ll add YES officers have a duty to ignore unconstitutional laws but the determination of the constitutionality should not rest of an officer

I think that sums up my views pretty well.

Any other questions my way can be directed at lawyers who help draft laws.

But i got a lot more stupid stories if anyone is interested lol

Fishguy · Nov 18, 2018

spoon059 said:
Quick question, while you're up there on your high horse... Do you concealed carry in Maryland? After all, you think its unconstitutional to limit the 2A, which means you think your right to carry is unconstitutional. You are talking big about equating law enforcement officers to Nazi's for following "unconstitutional" laws... but do you follow "unconstitutional" laws too?

It's a terrible analogy. He's not a police officer. His decision to follow or not follow an unconstitutional law regarding concealed carry only affects him. A police officer who chooses to enforce an unconstitutional law affects someone else's life.

spoon059 · Nov 18, 2018

Fishguy said:
It's a terrible analogy. He's not a police officer. His decision to follow or not follow an unconstitutional law regarding concealed carry only affects him. A police officer who chooses to enforce an unconstitutional law affects someone else's life.

It's a perfect analogy. He is demanding that I don't follow a law because he believes it's not constitutional. He wants me to accept whatever liability and responsibilities that befall me for ignoring a law.

I am simply asking if he is willing to accept the liability and responsibilities for ignoring a different law, one that he also thinks is unconstitutional.

It's real easy to criticize others. It's awful hard to be so self righteous when it's YOU on the line.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

Moon · Nov 18, 2018

spoon059 said:
Quick question, while you're up there on your high horse... Do you concealed carry in Maryland? After all, you think its unconstitutional to limit the 2A, which means you think your right to carry is unconstitutional. You are talking big about equating law enforcement officers to Nazi's for following "unconstitutional" laws... but do you follow "unconstitutional" laws too?

The question is about enforcing unconstitutional laws, not about following them.

Moon · Nov 18, 2018

StantonCree said:
I’ll counter your question with a question

Would you prefer a largely high school only educated populous determining what’s constitutional and not on the side of the road?

I’ll use me as an example. I tried to drop out of high school cuz I don’t excel at things i dislike. I was placed into the work studies program where i got to leave at 11 and go to a job i liked. I went to Frostburg (not exactly Ivy League). I was actually kicked out due to grades. I then went to Allegheny College of MD where i got a 4.0 for my only semester there before being reinstated into Frostburg. I never got less than a 3.5 after that but I’ll admit with summer/winter classes college basically took me 5 years......i had a lot of fun lol.

Would you like someone like me determining the constitutionality of laws?

It's the Constitution, not rocket science. If you can't figure it out, I wouldn't want you enforcing any laws at all.

StantonCree · Nov 18, 2018

mterry said:
It's the Constitution, not rocket science. If you can't figure it out, I wouldn't want you enforcing any laws at all.

A) Rude

B) i bet the courts have decided a lot of things you don’t like as constitutional

C) sounds like we are back to square one

D) Eez

E) I’d actually argue with all the ruling interpretations that it’s pretty damn close to rocket science

spoon059 · Nov 18, 2018

mterry said:
The question is about enforcing unconstitutional laws, not about following them.

Strap on a badge and be the change you want.

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Moon · Nov 18, 2018

StantonCree said:
A) Rude

Don't ask the question if you don't want it answered.

i bet the courts have decided a lot of things you don’t like as constitutional

Of course they have.

sounds like we are back to square one

I don't think we ever got off it.

D) Eez

E) I’d actually argue with all the ruling interpretations that it’s pretty damn close to rocket science

I'd argue that you are not a rocket scientist. I don't mean that as an insult, I have the utmost respect for you. However, the Constitution was meant to be understood by everyone, so the people that swear to uphold it shouldn't find it difficult.

Moon · Nov 18, 2018

spoon059 said:
Strap on a badge and be the change you want.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

Why?

I was just straightening you out on what the question was.

Why would I want to take a job where I am underpaid to deal with crap every day?

TexDefender · Nov 18, 2018

IDFInfantry said:
I wish we had more LEO's like this! I have to agree with this police chief though. If you are told to enforce laws that infringe upon a citizen's constitutional rights then you have a duty to not enforce! You swore an oath some of you more than once!

https://libertyhangout.org/2018/11/police-chief-washington-gun-control/?fbclid=IwAR10FplOLquq4DD2aZW3i1t_bVHUNAB3Gzx01dpboyhR2yWeQQnc_BrDaEo

Just because you "feel" if is infringing the constitution doesn't make it necessary so. A Sheriff is an elected individual and the head of that department. He can tell "his" officer not to enforce it. If it was blatantly so oblivious, every gun law would have been overturned. That has not happened. It is not for the individual officer to decide, it is up to their head manager and the courts.

Do officers have a duty to not enforce unconstitutional laws?

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