Stop using these stupid arguments!

sajidakh · Jan 6, 2019

I am no expert but I don't know why in the tactical community training to do the same thing in multiple ways is frowned upon. In this instance I generally use the slide release/lock method but when I shoot my soft ass shooting 9mm 1911 with an 11lb return spring I find myself utilizing the sling shot method.

Another example is the relatively new doctrine coming from the competition community in shooting with a rifle on the offhand side of a barrier/cover. Most instructors I have trained with now advocate keeping the hands in the same position and switching shoulders, when military doctrine used to be when you switch shoulders, switch arms.

I practice both in tactical carbine courses and find that if I make a decision to move towards my offhand side after taking a shot I will reflexively switch hands when making those initial shots from cover, then continue moving shooting from my left (offhand side). If I just plan on taking a couple shots and moving back behind cover or then moving to my support/strong side. I only switch shoulders and not Hands when making offside shots from cover.

IMHO we should drill to do things in multiple ways 1000s of times. We don't give our minds enough credit on being able to select the best method instinctually as long as we already have the muscle memory locked in. But, I cant speak from intensive individial combat experience so maybe a real trigger puller here can prove this sentiment wrong.

erwos · Jan 6, 2019

If you're on a timer, the slide release is faster. I don't even think that's debatable. I am also a little skeptical of appeals to sling-shotting for "guns you aren't familiar with". Why in the world are you carrying or competing with a gun you aren't familiar with?

sajidakh said:
Another example is the relatively new doctrine coming from the competition community in shooting with a rifle on the offhand side of a barrier/cover. Most instructors I have trained with now advocate keeping the hands in the same position and switching shoulders, when military doctrine used to be when you switch shoulders, switch arms.

As long as you can shoot from the magwell, this technique really is pretty great for CQB-range activities.

Meho1277 · Jan 6, 2019

If I may.....if you're having a fun, lazy day at the range, you do whatever i easiest for you.
Now, lets talk about up close, fight for your life scenario.....
And since I work with a local police dept everyday, I might have an above average knowledge abou this
First, the over the top and slingshot methods require both hands, and if you are trying to keep the assailant/aggressor at bay, you need at least one free hand to do this.
Secondly, the over the top method, possibly introduces the possibility of the skin on your palm to get pinched between the slide and breech, causing it to NOT go to full battery, producing a no fire situation, requiring another cycle of the slide...
Possibly.
Third, the slingshot method, once again, requires two hands, and more importantly, you are offering, by putting it out in front of you, a weapon that is not in full battery, to the assailant/aggressor, all he/she has to do is get a hand on the slide so it doesn't close, and you just basically lost your weapon.
There are no two scenarios that will ever be the same in a life or death situation, but i feel the slide lock/ release/catch/whatever you want to call it, has the least possibility of failure.....in an up close, life or death situation.

smokey · Jan 6, 2019

Boats said:
My reason for using the slide rack (or power stroke, or slingshot) method is multi-pistol compatibility.

There are some pistols that lack a slide stop(ppk, maks) others that don't lock back on empty (some 22s, pretty much anything from Jennings/Davis/Phoenix). Running the slide to gas it up after a mag change works no matter what.

But that works for me. Anyone I have taught to shoot, I encourage them to try both methods and explain the pros and cons of both.

What I don't do is preach one method over the other.

The importantest part is if the shooter can get the bullety things into the shooty thing quickly and reliably. Past that, it really doesn't matter how they do it.

It works until you rack a m9 and decock/safe the thing. I'm all for individualizing skills for specific needs and then mastering them with practice. My p99's slide stop lever is so easy to hit. I just use it to drop the slide with that gun. Coupled with the paddle mag release, I dont really need to shift my grip at all for mag changes, and can get right back to shooting. My m&ps reliably drop the slide on their own when I seat mags hard, so I seat mags with intent(and slight downward pressure on the stop lever for extra security). For glocks/ little guns, I've always preferred to just come over the top.

I dont think its nearly as important to worry about something like this as it is to focus on WHEN to reload and from where. I feel like you're generally screwing something up if you've got to reload from slide lock. I also think you need to question if you should be ducking behind cover, moving, or keeping eyes on a threat during the reload and making a situationally dependent judgment rather than just defaulting to one of those.

Another question that's probably more important than how you drop a slide... sul, compressed, or muzzle up when moving? Basically all ranges/ competitions/ classes require pointing down for safety at those places. At home with my 2 and 4 year old, this could very well result in me muzzling their forehead if I need to move to them in a defensive scenario upstairs. For that situation, it's much more safe to go muzzle-up to get to them...however this could change if im downstairs and they're sleeping upstairs. Do people spend time training both, and training to think about which type of manipulation makes the most sense, given a situational context?

Meho1277 · Jan 6, 2019

erwos said:
If you're on a timer, the slide release is faster. I don't even think that's debatable. I am also a little skeptical of appeals to sling-shotting for "guns you aren't familiar with". Why in the world are you carrying or competing with a gun you aren't familiar with?

As long as you can shoot from the magwell, this technique really is pretty great for CQB-range activities.

Just to clarify, I think he said in a battlefield situation.
Just sayin

smokey · Jan 6, 2019

Meho1277 said:
If I may.....if you're having a fun, lazy day at the range, you do whatever i easiest for you.
Now, lets talk about up close, fight for your life scenario.....
And since I work with a local police dept everyday, I might have an above average knowledge abou this
First, the over the top and slingshot methods require both hands, and if you are trying to keep the assailant/aggressor at bay, you need at least one free hand to do this.
Secondly, the over the top method, possibly introduces the possibility of the skin on your palm to get pinched between the slide and breech, causing it to NOT go to full battery, producing a no fire situation, requiring another cycle of the slide...
Possibly.
Third, the slingshot method, once again, requires two hands, and more importantly, you are offering, by putting it out in front of you, a weapon that is not in full battery, to the assailant/aggressor, all he/she has to do is get a hand on the slide so it doesn't close, and you just basically lost your weapon.
There are no two scenarios that will ever be the same in a life or death situation, but i feel the slide lock/ release/catch/whatever you want to call it, has the least possibility of failure.....in an up close, life or death situation.

I feel like if you're doing a reload while going hands on with someone, you dun f'd up. If someone is that close, a nice teep could be a solid choice for making space and keeping them off your gun. You are hugely doing something wrong if you are pinching your hand in the ejection port going over the top. Your hand should have come off the back of the gun and ended up somewhere by your strong side shoulder before the slide even begins returning forward. Im also confused about the needing 2 hands thing...id assume your support hand is already inserting a mag, so at minimum you are already using 2 hands. The fraction of a second to pop the slide release with strong/support thumb, or run the top it pretty trivial at that point. There are a myriad of other ways to run a slide that could be more effective though if you are just working it one-handed..like running the rear sights/mrdo off a nearby object of some kind. Dont forget the good old fashioned ninja-cock either.

cpo · Jan 6, 2019

Meho1277 said:
Just to clarify, I think he said in a battlefield situation.

Just sayin

I also mentioned if you happen to carry several different platforms... Some people feel more comfortable relying as little as possible on controls that may be in different places. I carry 1911 and Glock and I am just as capable using the slide stop on either. But if I also had a gun with no external slide stop, then I might feel differently. But I still have to train regularly with both because one has an external safety and one doesn't.

But yeah, if you are on a team, and God forbid you ever have to arm yourself with someone else's weapon (things must be pretty bad) it's better to just go to the universal method that works on every pistol vs trying to figure out the platform now in your hands. When I was SWAT we had a variety of guns in the stick. I carried a 1911, and there were Glocks and Berettas, etc. Even with rifles, sometimes I'd grab the Colt sub gun and sometimes I'd have the HK, or my personal AR15. I just learned how to work with any of them. Of course some teams may shoot all the same gear, and you have it easy.

cpo · Jan 6, 2019

And to add to the discussion... Statistically, it's not likely you'll ever even get to an emergency reload situation in a civilian capacity... Many defensive encounters have been caught on video and I've never seen one with a reload. But alas... We prepare for the worst.

Again... My intention with the video was to address people who just blindly repeat these mantras about the slide stop (often with a fierceness) based nothing on folklore or myths. If you have a good reason to do one or the other then so be it. I personally do both. They aren't mutually exclusive.

Meho1277 · Jan 6, 2019

smokey0118 said:
I feel like if you're doing a reload while going hands on with someone, you dun f'd up. If someone is that close, a nice teep could be a solid choice for making space and keeping them off your gun. You are hugely doing something wrong if you are pinching your hand in the ejection port going over the top. Your hand should have come off the back of the gun and ended up somewhere by your strong side shoulder before the slide even begins returning forward. Im also confused about the needing 2 hands thing...id assume your support hand is already inserting a mag, so at minimum you are already using 2 hands. The fraction of a second to pop the slide release with strong/support thumb, or run the top it pretty trivial at that point. There are a myriad of other ways to run a slide that could be more effective though if you are just working it one-handed..like running the rear sights/mrdo off a nearby object of some kind. Dont forget the good old fashioned ninja-cock either.

Sorry, since we are speaking of just the slide/release, its is implied that you already were able to get a new mag in, and yes, you should have your hand off of the slide by then, unless the aggressor has grabbed for your gun, and keeps your hand on the slide.
And there may be multiple aggressors.
Regardless, do what you gotta do to survive.

erwos · Jan 6, 2019

Meho1277 said:
Just to clarify, I think he said in a battlefield situation.
Just sayin

I fail to see how that makes it OK to be slow and inefficient.

Sent from my ZTE A2017U using Tapatalk

Name Taken · Jan 6, 2019

Meho1277 said:
If I may.....if you're having a fun, lazy day at the range, you do whatever i easiest for you.
Now, lets talk about up close, fight for your life scenario.....
And since I work with a local police dept everyday, I might have an above average knowledge abou this
First, the over the top and slingshot methods require both hands, and if you are trying to keep the assailant/aggressor at bay, you need at least one free hand to do this.
Secondly, the over the top method, possibly introduces the possibility of the skin on your palm to get pinched between the slide and breech, causing it to NOT go to full battery, producing a no fire situation, requiring another cycle of the slide...
Possibly.
Third, the slingshot method, once again, requires two hands, and more importantly, you are offering, by putting it out in front of you, a weapon that is not in full battery, to the assailant/aggressor, all he/she has to do is get a hand on the slide so it doesn't close, and you just basically lost your weapon.
There are no two scenarios that will ever be the same in a life or death situation, but i feel the slide lock/ release/catch/whatever you want to call it, has the least possibility of failure.....in an up close, life or death situation.

I'm not sure what you do with the police everyday...perhaps tow cars, some accounting work, or mop the floor for them. But nothing besides "it requires two hands" matters in any of the 3 examples you posted.

I'm a left handed shooter who learned on a Sig....I sling shot because it is muscle memory and it hasn't failed me ever.

Your entire "it takes two hands" makes no sense because the reload takes two hands. Do you lose that hand in .5 of a second it takes between getting the mag seated?

If you are doing a reload why are you putting your off hand "out there" as you describe in your third situation? It's no more out there then it was when you inserted the magazine. It just goes up a few inches.

Enjoy.

hodgepodge · Jan 6, 2019

I do it the way I do it because that's how we were trained in the SEALs. I still practice it when patrolling Annapolis Mall.

Biggfoot44 · Jan 6, 2019

New York

cpo · Jan 6, 2019

This seems relevant to this topic.

Biggfoot44 · Jan 6, 2019

Proper direction of TP is by far best , but the so called " You Monster " position is a lot better than being installed backwards .

threegun · Jan 6, 2019

Popcorn I need popcorn!

Tungsten · Jan 6, 2019

Biggfoot44 said:
Proper direction of TP is by far best , but the so called " You Monster " position is a lot better than being installed backwards .

To me that is just being lazy. The real "monster" is when someone removes the empty cardboard tube, and then sits the new roll on top. That is just straight up phychopathic behavior.

Docster · Jan 6, 2019

cpo said:
This seems relevant to this topic.

It goes with my argument; I don't give a shit what it's called....

smokey · Jan 6, 2019

cpo said:
This seems relevant to this topic.

Universal rules are still a bad idea and you need to use the situationally dependent best answer. If you have cats or small children, paper-under instead of over-the-top keeps you from finding an unrolled pile of tp on the floor.

cpo · Jan 6, 2019

Docster said:
It goes with my argument; I don't give a shit what it's called....

smokey0118 said:
Universal rules are still a bad idea and you need to use the situationally dependent best answer. If you have cats or small children, paper-under instead of over-the-top keeps you from finding an unrolled pile of tp on the floor.

Ha! Both great responses!

Stop using these stupid arguments!

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