What is it worth for you to carry

t3tech · Oct 29, 2008

marknakasone said:
Why'd you get searched? That is unacceptable, did you forget "I do not consent to any searches"...step out of the car please [lock you door behind you and still refuse]...then "did you pull me over for a traffic violation, are you detaining me or am I free to go".... "please get your supervisor down here so I can file against you."

and by the way, can't you go to jail for life if you have an "illegal" handgun in DE?

I think you can find the basic story in one of the threads here from about a year or so ago. Actually here it is.

I neither consented nor clearly refused a search. I was tired and had been drinking earlier that night so I wasn't in the mood to deal with some hothead that didn't do anything right from the door (asking for all passenger ID's on first contact) and was already expecting to make some big drug bust (or from stories I've heard about the area more likely to just confiscate some stuff and send off the "lucky" detainee on their way with a warning type thing). I was pulled over because the tags of the company vehicle were flagged as uninsured. The company (meaning I) forgot to pay the bill one month so the insurance technically did lapse for maybe a few days but at the time of the stop it was paid up and current. Even if it weren't for that, I'm pretty sure I would have been pulled over for some reason anyway. Being a company vehicle probably would've added to the "probable cause" that the vehicle was stolen or some similar excuse. My opinion is that a vehicle search is SOP for the area I was in. Luckily, my friend that lived there moved out of there a few months or so after that.

I was rather pissed about it and looked into pursuing a lawsuit which involved notifying the State's attorney's office of the pending complaint to be filed in court prior to filing a suit. I did do that much which hopefully resulted in something against those involved, but with having to basically present prior notice of the case giving them an enormous lead time to CYA along with the difficulty in finding an attorney willing to pursue the case since there's no way I'd try something like that pro se, I ended up just having to let it go and be content with the traffic charges being dropped by the State.

Not sure about the "illegal" handgun thing. The only couple laws I found close are carrying concealed (without a permit) and having a firearm with the SN removed. A DE carry permit isn't too awfully difficult to get from what I hear, but you have to jump through a couple hoops like publishing a notice of intent in the paper and having recommendation letters.

Carrying a concealed deadly weapon is a class G felony, unless the accused has been convicted within the previous 5 years of the same offense, in which case it is a class E felony.

(a) No person shall knowingly transport, ship, possess or receive any firearm with the knowledge that the importer's or manufacturer's serial number has been removed, obliterated or altered in a manner that has disguised or concealed the identity or origin of the firearm.

(b) This section shall not apply to a firearm manufactured prior to 1973.
(c) Possessing, transporting, shipping or receiving a firearm with a removed, obliterated or altered serial number pursuant to this section is a class D felony

(a) A sentence of incarceration for a felony shall be a definite sentence.

(b) The term of incarceration which the court may impose for a felony is fixed as follows:
(1) For a class A felony not less than 15 years up to life imprisonment to be served at Level V except for conviction of first-degree murder in which event § 4209 of this title shall apply.
(2) For a class B felony not less than 2 years up to 25 years to be served at Level V.
(3) For a class C felony up to 15 years to be served at Level V.
(4) For a class D felony up to 8 years to be served at Level V.
(5) For a class E felony up to 5 years to be served at Level V.
(6) For a class F felony up to 3 years to be served at Level V.
(7) For a class G felony up to 2 years to be served at Level V.

smores · Oct 29, 2008

Let's say on Nov. 5th, all hell is breaking loose, cities are burning, etc.

Who here wouldn't carry something with them, just to ensure the safety of their own life?

Of course, here in MD the MSP has likely been keeping a secret list of anyone with "regulated" guns or C&R FFLs, and O'Malley will execute a Nagin-esque order to go around and collect...

But still, I'm assuming in that state that it's every man/woman/child for him/herself so anything would be good as long as you kept yourself alive.

novus collectus · Oct 29, 2008

smores said:
Let's say on Nov. 5th, all hell is breaking loose, cities are burning, etc.

Who here wouldn't carry something with them, just to ensure the safety of their own life?

I worry more about a class 4 hurricane hitting the area this Nov. 5th than I do riots, but hypothetically speaking, that is when I will start to carry around a long gun or an antique handgun...or if I had one, maybe a Quackenbush air pistol.

Of course, here in MD the MSP has likely been keeping a secret list of anyone with "regulated" guns or C&R FFLs, and O'Malley will execute a Nagin-esque order to go around and collect...

But still, I'm assuming in that state that it's every man/woman/child for him/herself so anything would be good as long as you kept yourself alive.

They have a list of regulated gun purchases and it is not secret, it is the law. Of course though if they showed up you can just refuse to talk to them or admit you have any or let them in your house. The record is not proof of current ownership.
There is also a law on the books that the governor can ban the sales, possession and even confiscation of firearms in a state of emergency and it has happened in MD before (Baltimore), but recently I was reading the new federal law passed two years ago and the majority of police officers in MD cannot legally confiscate firearms in an emergency. However though, I think the only penalty is that they can be sued and they can just do it anyway and just say "so sue us".

Drmsparks · Oct 29, 2008

Spot77 said:
It's not worth my honor and breaking my word.

I've tried to live my life by the law, and I've testified countless times in front of the legislature about how I, as a law abiding citizen should be allowed to carry.

I'd rather die with my integrity than live without it.

+1000.

I travel alot for work and am always worried about getting back to the family in case of a 9-11 on steroids/Katrina/68 riots scenario.

Maryland has relatively negotiable rules on transport of long guns. I believe Novus pointed out there is no law against a trunk gun.

If there is a disaster you should be smart, get home and stay off the streets.

Boxcab · Oct 29, 2008

Spot77 said:
It's not worth my honor and breaking my word.

I've tried to live my life by the law, and I've testified countless times in front of the legislature about how I, as a law abiding citizen should be allowed to carry.

I'd rather die with my integrity than live without it.

Well said.

Cadet08 · Oct 29, 2008

novus collectus said:
Now, I have said this before and before I start remember I am not a lawyer, but an antique handgun is not covered under the "Handguns" section (pertinent parts, 4-201 and 4-203) and they might not be covered under the concealed weapons section. At the very least there seems to be no law on the open carry of antique handguns (local laws may exist) and therefore it seems to be legal. But the concealed carry, as this non lawyer reads it, is not illegal either because handguns are exempted by the concealed weapons section (4-101).

I have open carried an antique pistol allot of times in MD, of course I was always in a confederate uniform and around other people similarly dressed, and I open carried a rifle in a zouave uniform.

novus collectus · Oct 29, 2008

Cadet08 said:
I have open carried an antique pistol allot of times in MD, of course I was always in a confederate uniform and around other people similarly dressed, and I open carried a rifle in a zouave uniform.

You beat me to it. I was waiting for someone to ask for an example and that is what I was going to bring up. If there was a law against open carry of unloaded or loaded (with blanks, but still loaded) antique handguns, then the CW reenactors would be breaking the law if they are not on private property.

kohburn · Oct 29, 2008

novus collectus said:
They have a list of regulated gun purchases and it is not secret, it is the law. Of course though if they showed up you can just refuse to talk to them or admit you have any or let them in your house. The record is not proof of current ownership.

how do you remove ownership without creating a new record and remaining a MD resident?

novus collectus · Oct 29, 2008

kohburn said:
how do you remove ownership without creating a new record and remaining a MD resident?

There are a number of ways to no longer be the owner and not have any record of it with the state.
If you sold it to an FFL in the state or in another state.
If you sold it to a police department or law enforcement agency.
If it was unservicable and sold as a C&R or museum piece and you sold it to another person. (My cutaway handgun may fall into this category)
If it is permanently rendered inoperable and sold to another person.
If you sell it to certain organizations.
If you destroy it and dispose of it.
If you move out of state temporarily and transfer it to a resident of that state and move back (especially if you have dual residency status and you maintain a residence in MD the whole time. Or if you are military and are stationed out of state at the time of transfer).
If you convert it into a non-regulated firearm and sell it to another state resident.
If you lost it on a fatefull boat trip in the Chesapeake.

Boxcab · Oct 29, 2008

novus collectus said:
If you lost it on a fatefull boat trip in the Chesapeake.

That was a bad day for alot of people. :innocent0

novus collectus · Oct 29, 2008

Boxcab said:
That was a bad day for alot of people.

Yeah, and it seems to happen every time I buy a new gun too. I have terrible luck.

haoleboy · Oct 29, 2008

Isn't there a provision for the Designated Collectors that we may transport all or any part of our collection at anytime because we may be showing our collection?
It may be tricky to convince a cop that you are going to show your collection to someone at 2am, but who knows.

Andy

novus collectus · Oct 29, 2008

haoleboy said:
Isn't there a provision for the Designated Collectors that we may transport all or any part of our collection at anytime because we may be showing our collection?
It may be tricky to convince a cop that you are going to show your collection to someone at 2am, but who knows.

Andy

Not exactly, but could be though. The definition of "bona fide gun collector" in 4-203 is not made, so I guess if you have either a designation or a C&R FFL you could claim it either way.

(5) the moving by a bona fide gun collector of part or all of the collector's gun collection from place to place for public or private exhibition if each handgun is unloaded and carried in an enclosed case or an enclosed holster;

smores · Oct 29, 2008

novus collectus said:
I worry more about a class 4 hurricane hitting the area this Nov. 5th than I do riots, but hypothetically speaking, that is when I will start to carry around a long gun or an antique handgun...or if I had one, maybe a Quackenbush air pistol.

They have a list of regulated gun purchases and it is not secret, it is the law. Of course though if they showed up you can just refuse to talk to them or admit you have any or let them in your house. The record is not proof of current ownership.

I'm just a little wary now since I've been targeted in vandalism. I know at school I am pretty vocal about being conservative, and have worn/displayed openly anti-Obama stickers/pins/clothing. I'm not going to go into much but if I wake up and there are incidents of people being violently assaulted (worse than the McCain office being attacked, workers maced) I would be on "red level" for SA until things calmed down.

As for the regulated gun purchases, when MSP come a-knockin to snatch up my stash and they don't have a warrant, that door is not being opened. Would they be issued warrants to search people's houses who are on "the list"? I'd imagine so. And if so, I'd have to imagine that they'd be allowed to search.

Could one keep the guns at a friends house (who is not prohibited from owning guns), so that their search would turn up nothing? And then when asked where they are, can I just play "Mr. Constitution" and tell them to pound sand?

Spot77 · Oct 29, 2008

haoleboy said:
Isn't there a provision for the Designated Collectors that we may transport all or any part of our collection at anytime because we may be showing our collection?
It may be tricky to convince a cop that you are going to show your collection to someone at 2am, but who knows.

Andy

There is an MSI member who has a carry permit to protect his gun collection. I'll leave it at that.

TOWcritter · Oct 29, 2008

Hey guys, the police carry for a living! And they are getting shot a lot lately.
And getting killed. Granted, they do it for a living and it takes a certain type of person to do the job but if they carry and are getting XXX'd then even with good training and common sense it seems like you are setting yourself up by carrying without a permit. :tdown:

Until the SHTF! :thumbsup:

urbanwarrior · Oct 30, 2008

Ok...you have to weigh the risks in your own mind. For me, my freedom, even 1 minute, isn't worth it. I am LEO so I am fortunate enough to be able to carry everday. I hear everyone here and wish we all came with stamps on our foreheads that told everyone else whether we were a good or a bad person. We have had similar discussions here in my relatively short tenure here. If a Baltimore City Police told you to carry despite the laws, that is quite frankly piss poor advice and I am glad you didn't take it. If you are caught, the worst case scenario, since you are inexperienced at concealed carry, would be the officer asks you if you are carrying and you reply yes and reach for the gun. Then someone has to tell your family about your tragic demise, while the officers actions are Monday morning quarterbacked by everyone, when all he did was resort to his training and react to...yes...fear. So please don't look at the world as if it is always trying to take away your Constitutional Rights, but see the fact that not everyone, not many actually, have any common sense at all. Just because you feel you are capable and qualified to carry, Billy Bob down the street, who is a drunk and a complete idiot, thinks he too is going to carry. Sorry but that does not make me feel safe at all.
As for being stopped by the police, I am sure you didn't get out of bed this morning to be "harrassed" by some stupid police that you, and everyone else, can do his job so much better than him anyway. Harrassment by the way requires a pattern of a certain behavior, so if I meet you for the first time it is pretty impossible for me to harrass you. Well the flip side of that coin is that the stupid police didn't get out of bed to have some snot nosed goof give him a load of crap or tell him how to do his job. Yes you have the right to request a supervisor if you receive "bad customer service." Lucky for you the police have rules and you have rights, because if you tried that with someone anywhere else in the world, with a jerk ass cocky attitude, you would be looking for your front teeth on the ground in front of you. You'll have that same problem with the police at times too!
As for the search part, on a car stop, Novus here is where you come in, a LEO is allowed to remove any and all occupants and conduct a pat down of their outer garments checking for weapons for officer safety. (Terry vs. Ohio) LEO's are also allowed to conduct a search of the passenger compartment of the vehicle, commonly called the lunge, reach or grasp area, to search for any weapons. Supreme Court said so! If you are so inclined to lock the door behind you, we will get it open, not to mention you have elevated the level of suspicion cast upon you. Most police aren't as dumb as you think, some of us actually have college degrees, we are very good at articulating because we know what we saw and what we were feeling and we know how to convey it to the court, the layman does not. The court also allows us leeway to express our thoughts and feelings, because yes...we are...professionals.
The next time you get stopped by the police for...yes....breaking the law....greet him with hello Officer D**khead and see where it gets you. Or, greet him with hello Officer, keeping your hands on top of the steering wheel because remember we all don't have good guy/bad guy tattoos on our foreheads, and do or retrieve what he asks and don't give him crap and leave with your warning.

novus collectus · Oct 30, 2008

urbanwarrior said:
...
As for the search part, on a car stop, Novus here is where you come in, a LEO is allowed to remove any and all occupants and conduct a pat down of their outer garments checking for weapons for officer safety. (Terry vs. Ohio) LEO's are also allowed to conduct a search of the passenger compartment of the vehicle, commonly called the lunge, reach or grasp area, to search for any weapons. Supreme Court said so! If you are so inclined to lock the door behind you, we will get it open, not to mention you have elevated the level of suspicion cast upon you.

Something tells me this is not right. From what I gather from the Terry search is it is for the officer's safety because if someone is armed they can attack the officer. If the car door is locked, then it cannot be argued they can reach a weapon in it because it is locked.
The suspicion part, it is not probable cause and, correct me if I am wrong, you need probable cause to enter a locked vehicle to search it without permission.

Besides the Terry search, there is this in MD law:

§ 4-206.

(a) (1) A law enforcement officer may make an inquiry and conduct a limited search of a person under paragraph (2) of this subsection if the officer, in light of the officer's observations, information, and experience, reasonably believes that:

(i) the person may be wearing, carrying, or transporting a handgun in violation of § 4-203 of this subtitle;

(ii) because the person possesses a handgun, the person is or presently may be dangerous to the officer or to others;

(iii) under the circumstances, it is impracticable to obtain a search warrant; and

(iv) to protect the officer or others, swift measures are necessary to discover whether the person is wearing, carrying, or transporting a handgun.

(2) If the circumstances specified under paragraph (1) of this subsection exist, a law enforcement officer:

(i) may approach the person and announce the officer's status as a law enforcement officer;

(ii) may request the name and address of the person;

(iii) if the person is in a vehicle, may request the person's license to operate the vehicle and the registration of the vehicle;

(iv) may ask any question and request any explanation that may be reasonably calculated to determine whether the person is unlawfully wearing, carrying, or transporting a handgun in violation of § 4-203 of this subtitle; and

(v) if the person does not offer an explanation that dispels the officer's reasonable beliefs described in paragraph (1) of this subsection, may conduct a search of the person limited to a patting or frisking of the person's clothing in search of a handgun. [one could argue that this statute actually prevents the officer from searching the vehicle when it says the search is limitted to the person's clothing]

(3) A law enforcement officer acting under this subsection shall take into account all circumstances of the occasion, including the age, appearance, physical condition, manner, and gender of the person approached.

(b) (1) If the officer discovers that the person is wearing, carrying, or transporting a handgun, the officer may demand evidence from the person of the person's authority to wear, carry, or transport the handgun in accordance with § 4-203(b) of this article.

(2) If the person does not produce the evidence specified in paragraph (1) of this subsection, the officer may seize the handgun and arrest the person.

Most police aren't as dumb as you think, some of us actually have college degrees, we are very good at articulating because we know what we saw and what we were feeling and we know how to convey it to the court, the layman does not. The court also allows us leeway to express our thoughts and feelings, because yes...we are...professionals.
The next time you get stopped by the police for...yes....breaking the law....greet him with hello Officer D**khead and see where it gets you. Or, greet him with hello Officer, keeping your hands on top of the steering wheel because remember we all don't have good guy/bad guy tattoos on our foreheads, and do or retrieve what he asks and don't give him crap and leave with your warning.

I always have my hands on top of the steering wheel when pulled over. My sister told me how one thing that bothers her as a police officer when walking up to a car she pulled over is seeing someone reaching in the glove box to get the registration ready and it looks the same from the back as someone reaching for a gun in the glove box.
I will never consent to a search though and not always do everything they ask. Let's face it, while 99.9% of all police officers in MD are professional and are good, there are still a few asshats that just don't give a shit and will step over the line with you in a second. Where I live, Prince George's county used to be full of them (more than a few went to prison since then).

Rattlesnake46319 · Oct 30, 2008

urbanwarrior said:
Ok...you have to weigh the risks in your own mind. For me, my freedom, even 1 minute, isn't worth it. I am LEO so I am fortunate enough to be able to carry everday. I hear everyone here and wish we all came with stamps on our foreheads that told everyone else whether we were a good or a bad person. We have had similar discussions here in my relatively short tenure here. If a Baltimore City Police told you to carry despite the laws, that is quite frankly piss poor advice and I am glad you didn't take it. If you are caught, the worst case scenario, since you are inexperienced at concealed carry, would be the officer asks you if you are carrying and you reply yes and reach for the gun. Then someone has to tell your family about your tragic demise, while the officers actions are Monday morning quarterbacked by everyone, when all he did was resort to his training and react to...yes...fear. So please don't look at the world as if it is always trying to take away your Constitutional Rights, but see the fact that not everyone, not many actually, have any common sense at all. Just because you feel you are capable and qualified to carry, Billy Bob down the street, who is a drunk and a complete idiot, thinks he too is going to carry. Sorry but that does not make me feel safe at all.
As for being stopped by the police, I am sure you didn't get out of bed this morning to be "harrassed" by some stupid police that you, and everyone else, can do his job so much better than him anyway. Harrassment by the way requires a pattern of a certain behavior, so if I meet you for the first time it is pretty impossible for me to harrass you. Well the flip side of that coin is that the stupid police didn't get out of bed to have some snot nosed goof give him a load of crap or tell him how to do his job. Yes you have the right to request a supervisor if you receive "bad customer service." Lucky for you the police have rules and you have rights, because if you tried that with someone anywhere else in the world, with a jerk ass cocky attitude, you would be looking for your front teeth on the ground in front of you. You'll have that same problem with the police at times too!
As for the search part, on a car stop, Novus here is where you come in, a LEO is allowed to remove any and all occupants and conduct a pat down of their outer garments checking for weapons for officer safety. (Terry vs. Ohio) LEO's are also allowed to conduct a search of the passenger compartment of the vehicle, commonly called the lunge, reach or grasp area, to search for any weapons. Supreme Court said so! If you are so inclined to lock the door behind you, we will get it open, not to mention you have elevated the level of suspicion cast upon you. Most police aren't as dumb as you think, some of us actually have college degrees, we are very good at articulating because we know what we saw and what we were feeling and we know how to convey it to the court, the layman does not. The court also allows us leeway to express our thoughts and feelings, because yes...we are...professionals.
The next time you get stopped by the police for...yes....breaking the law....greet him with hello Officer D**khead and see where it gets you. Or, greet him with hello Officer, keeping your hands on top of the steering wheel because remember we all don't have good guy/bad guy tattoos on our foreheads, and do or retrieve what he asks and don't give him crap and leave with your warning.

Just to add, put yourself in his shoes. I got popped for speeding north on 95 at MM 107 about two weeks ago around 11pm. Myself and another vehicle coming up fast on me. Wasn't sure who the MSP was after so we both pulled over. I flipped on the interior lights and kept my hands on top of the wheel. Guy behind me didn't. When the officer approached, I waited until he could see I was leaning over to roll down the passenger window (crank), explained I was reaching for my wallet when asked for my DL and played nice. Got a thank you for my effort.

Now, back to putting yourself in his shoes. You're Private Joe Snuffy on roadblock duty in Iraq. Ahmed Iraqi Citizen comes through the roadblock at high speed. Possible VBIED attack, shoot/don't shoot scenario. Whatcha do? Poor analogy, but same concept. When you go to work and it's possible you won't come home, you tend to take precautions. But Mr. LEO wants to go home as much as I do, and he doesn't know my intentions. So I make the situation easy on him, and he's usually cool with me. If he's out of line, I make a note of his name and badge number and deal with it later when it's not a high-stress situation. Finesse, not force. If that doesn't work later on, I just hope that he cuts a wet fart at the beginning of his next shift and he can't change his pants.

Solve anything? Nope, but dammit, the thought makes me laugh.

trickg · Oct 30, 2008

I am with Spot77 and those who agree with him. Even though I sincerely disagree with the law, I'll abide by it because if I don't, then how am I better than the average criminal?

I do the next best things I can. I carry a knife (Emerson combat folder) and I used to keep a pair of Cooperman Guardsman drumsticks in my car. (I used to tap on my steering wheel when stuck in traffic) Those babies were 95 grams apiece and made from persimmon, a heavy, dense, hard wood. My thought was that if I ever got car-jacked, a few hard whacks about the head and shoulders (collar bone) with one of those things would put a serious damper on the whole experience for the prospective car-jacker. In all seriousness, it wouldn't only be an annoyance to Mr. Thug - I could completely incapacitate someone with a pair of those things in short order.

What is it worth for you to carry

The #1 community for Gun Owners of the Northeast

Member Benefits:

Active Member

Creepy-Ass Cracker

Banned

Old School Rifleman

MSI EM

Gone

Banned

Resident MacGyver

Banned

MSI EM

Banned

1/2 Banned

Banned

Creepy-Ass Cracker

Ultimate Member

Self Sufficent Sovereign

Member

Banned

Curmidget

Guns 'n Drums

Users who are viewing this thread

Log in

Forum statistics