Awesome answer to b.s. question "why someone needs ar-15"

clandestine · Mar 3, 2018

Jim12 said:
Nobody in their right mind (me, anyway, speaking for myself) is or would dare to argue with Chad about the genesis, history, parts, function, operation, etc. of the AR15. But that's not the point that I've been addressing. The point is that there is a distinction between today's civilian version and the military version. If I'm wrong about that or what follows, please correct me.

The anti's lump the civilian and military versions together and want them all treated as an indistinguishable, monolithic group of "assault weapons" and "weapons of war," "made only for killing masses of people," etc. We've heard it all. It's they, not us, who don't recognize the mechanical and functional distinctions, even though some in the 2A community call them "assault rifles," rather than "modern sporting rifle."

We, on the other hand, want to keep them, and one line of argument is to emphasize both: 1) the distinctions between today's civilian vs. military version (e.g. semi-automatic vs. automatic); and 2) the many positive, useful purposes the civilian version serves in the hands of civilians (e.g. defense, shooting sports, hunting, and the reason why the 2A was adopted, despite being under-gunned compared to the military version).

Pointing out that the civilian version is only semi-automatic vs. the military's automatic version addresses the anti's arguments that it's the military's weapon of war and the same thing used by the military.

I'm here to learn about this, so if I'm wrong, I'd like to know where and how.

Here is the most simple explanation.

A quality Civilian Semi Auto AR (Safe-Semi) is equal to a current issued M4A1 (Safe-Semi-Burst). Same exact foundation. They add a few parts for the sear mechanism, but the foundation is the same. The design wasn't modified when the military adopted it, nor was it changed when machineguns we're banned in 86. Colt and a few companies made it a little harder to convert them, but the gun is the same.

The legal difference is that a full auto or burst variant cant be made for general consumption anymore. They can be purchased if one has $20k. The government made this happen by banning them I'm 1986. This is the important distinction. It's a legal distinction, and not a technical one.

Almost all Civilian AR's come with M16 Carriers. It aids in reliability. It does not make it a machinegun by having that one part.

The only difference in the Civilian AR and the M4A1 is a change in a few parts. Some are easier to do it, some are not. Doing it without the proper paperwork or licensing is something we legal gun owners don't do.

clandestine · Mar 3, 2018

secretsquirrel35 said:
I'm an extremely logical and straightforward person and this isn't confusing. 1≠1.01. Unless 1=1, they're not the same.

I didn't say anything about preventing the use of a FA BCG. I said a lot of companies, especially the lower end models, don't use a FA BCG. I'm well aware of the certain receivers that come with the sear pin hole engraved or dimpled though I don't think colt has made them in a long, long time.

Nope. Almost every manufacturer now uses M16 Carriers in their complete AR' and in their Parts Kits.

The only deviation is for race guns where they want a lightweight carrier. They are the exception now, not the rule.

Anwil6 · Mar 3, 2018

Threeband said:
He starts by pointing out that the question, "Why do you need an AR 15" is a Complex Question, like "Have you stopped beating your wife?" He then makes a good point: the question should be, "Why do so many millions and millions and millions of people WANT an AR 15?"

The Universal Rifle

The AR 15 is the Universal Rifle - the one rifle to have if you can only have one rifle.

It can do pretty much anything you'd call on a rifle to do. It is excellent for training and for introduction to shooting, with its highly refined iron sights and moderate recoil. It is easy to add scopes or red dot sights. Easy to customize for fit, with adjustable stocks for large and small shooters. It is great for informal shooting, and has excellent ergonomics.

It is the standard for serious target competition. The design is fundamentally very accurate, with its multi-lug bolt locking positively into the barrel, the direct impingement system eliminating moving parts which degrade accuracy, and its aluminum and synthetic construction eliminating wood and traditional bedding challenges.

It is excellent for many types of hunting. Remember, the AR 15 is not just a .223/5.56 caliber rifle. It can change calibers in less than a minute, down to .22 rimfire, and up to .300 Blackout, 6.5 Grendel, 6.8 SPC, and even .458 SOCOM and .50 Beowulf. These choices make it the modern equivalent of the old .30-30 deer rifle, or even the .45-70 buffalo gun.

It is excellent for home defense. When loaded with appropriate ammunition, it is much less likely to penetrate walls than is a pistol. It is a wise and comforting precaution for a single person alone, whether on an isolated farm or in a suburban house or apartment.

It is the authoritative Keeper of the Peace during times of social breakdown, as during riots or natural disasters. It can send looters on their way without firing a shot, but it is no bluff.

It is the last defense against a tyrannical government, should the would-be elites forget that authority comes from the consent of the governed and that power comes from the barrel of a gun.

It is simply the best general purpose, all around rifle for almost any imaginable purpose: the Universal Rifle.

That is why it is the most popular rifle in America today.

- "Threeband"

Can I send most of this post to a connection I have in local news? It’s freaking great! Sums it all up. After reading that, almost anyone has to want one lol.

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OLM-Medic · Mar 3, 2018

secretsquirrel35 said:
If you tell someone with zero gun knowledge that the military is using the same weapons you can buy in a gun store they're going to get the wrong idea. Hell, the vast majority of the country seems to think machine guns are already illegal. A lot of gun owners think this too. Blows my mind.

I don't even care about semantics anymore.

They aren't taking our guns and that's the bottom line.

fidelity · Mar 3, 2018

Jim, the reason that I asked about burst mode was because a NYT piece was arguing that this was the main functional difference between most civilian AR-15 and M-4/M-16 rifles, and in both training and use in combat, the rifles are predominantly used in semiautomatic mode.

This will filter out to the rest of the liberal media, and folks using the "but it's not a firearm suitable for military use" will put themselves in a box - as they are in essence saying that if it is suitable for military use or minimally different from what the military uses, yes, you can take my rifle. It also implicitly accepts the anti argument that "military" features are reasonable to ban, which is a rabbit hole as we know. It's as biased a viewpoint as "why does anyone need an AR-15". Chad made the same points above in one of his earlier posts in the thread.

Instead, I like the discussion points that I want a rifle that is multipurpose (hunting, self defense, competition, etc), that is easy to clean, that is easy to disassemble, that I can fix myself, and that is accurate. As it turns out, the military and law enforcement like these features too. The military can also arm itself in ways beyond most individuals, but what is wrong with me getting a basic rifle platform? Heck, even the fundamental design is a half century old. In conjunction with the above, I think one needs to point out to the anti that they are a statist and other statist positions that take freedoms and liberties away from citizens and gives more control to the state - and tell them that they are viewing things from the perspective of someone seeking to protect the state at the expense of the individual. And then ask them why?

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Jim12 · Mar 3, 2018

fidelity said:
Jim, the reason that I asked about burst mode was because a NYT piece was arguing that this was the main functional difference between most civilian AR-15 and M-4/M-16 rifles, and in both training and use in combat, the rifles are predominantly used in semiautomatic mode.

This will filter out to the rest of the liberal media, and folks using the "but it's not a firearm suitable for military use" will put themselves in a box - as they are in essence saying that if it is suitable for military use or minimally different from what the military uses, yes, you can take my rifle. It also implicitly accepts the anti argument that "military" features are reasonable to ban, which is a rabbit hole as we know. It's as biased a viewpoint as "why does anyone need an AR-15". Chad made the same points above in one of his earlier posts in the thread.

Instead, I like the discussion points that I want a rifle that is multipurpose (hunting, self defense, competition, etc), that is easy to clean, that is easy to disassemble, that I can fix myself, and that is accurate. As it turns out, the military and law enforcement like these features too. The military can also arm itself in ways beyond most individuals, but what is wrong with me getting a basic rifle platform? Heck, even the fundamental design is a half century old. In conjunction with the above, I think one needs to point out to the anti that they are a statist and other statist positions that take freedoms and liberties away from citizens and gives more control to the state - and tell them that they are viewing things from the perspective of someone seeking to protect the state at the expense of the individual. And then ask them why?

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Is calling b.s. to their false allegations an admission of anything else? It's just saying that they're wrong. If they allege something different, that can be addressed if and as alleged. I appreciate your view, as always, Fi.

And I really like your discussion points. They should be emphasized and worked into the public discussion more often.

fidelity · Mar 3, 2018

Jim12 said:
Is calling b.s. to their false allegations an admission of anything else? It's just saying that they're wrong. If they allege something different, that can be addressed if and as alleged. I appreciate your view, as always, Fi.

And I really like your discussion points. They should be emphasized and worked into the public discussion more often.

As long as the call out doesn't devolve into "thus I can have it" because the gun owner will have accepted the implicit bias that civilians can't have firearms that the military also selects. I think most people fail at this, especially when they start saying that the military version is fully automatic. As mentioned, it "not being a military rifle" argument is a cousin of the military features argument that the antis use.

I do think an offensive position of why can't I get an easy to maintain and fix rifle irrespective of what the military selects, why are you so eager to restrict my freedoms, why do you think you know what my best self-defense options are, why do you think government should take liberties away from citizens, etc to put them on the defensive needs to be adopted immediately in a discussion.

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Threeband · Mar 3, 2018

Anwil6 said:
Can I send most of this post to a connection I have in local news? It’s freaking great! Sums it all up. After reading that, almost anyone has to want one lol.

The Universal Rifle

The AR 15 is the Universal Rifle - the one rifle to have if you can only have one rifle.

It can do pretty much anything you'd call on a rifle to do. It is excellent for training and for introduction to shooting, with its highly refined iron sights and moderate recoil. It is easy to add scopes or red dot sights. Easy to customize for fit, with adjustable stocks for large and small shooters. It is great for informal shooting, and has excellent ergonomics.

It is the standard for serious target competition. The design is fundamentally very accurate, with its multi-lug bolt locking positively into the barrel, the direct impingement system eliminating moving parts which degrade accuracy, and its aluminum and synthetic construction eliminating wood and traditional bedding challenges.

It is excellent for many types of hunting. Remember, the AR 15 is not just a .223/5.56 caliber rifle. It can change calibers in less than a minute, down to .22 rimfire, and up to .300 Blackout, 6.5 Grendel, 6.8 SPC, and even .458 SOCOM and .50 Beowulf. These choices make it the modern equivalent of the old .30-30 deer rifle, or even the .45-70 buffalo gun.

It is excellent for home defense. When loaded with appropriate ammunition, it is much less likely to penetrate walls than is a pistol. It is a wise and comforting precaution for a single person alone, whether on an isolated farm or in a suburban house or apartment.

It is the authoritative Keeper of the Peace during times of social breakdown, as during riots or natural disasters. It can send looters on their way without firing a shot, but it is no bluff.

It is the last defense against a tyrannical government, should the would-be elites forget that authority comes from the consent of the governed and that power comes from the barrel of a gun.

It is simply the best general purpose, all around rifle for almost any imaginable purpose: the Universal Rifle.

That is why it is the most popular rifle in America today.

- "Threeband"

Click to expand...

I responded in a PM, but then decided to post that response here:

Yes, if you follow the quote back to the original thread, you'll see I told others to feel free to share it. I would prefer you ascribe it to "Threeband", though even that isn't a big deal.

I am not an AR expert by any means, and it isn't even my favorite rifle. I like old guns with history and character: The M1 Garand is my favorite to shoot, and "Threeband" refers to my muzzleloading musket.

But if I could only own one single rifle, it would absolutely be the AR 15, for the reasons I tried to mention in that brief piece.

I just don't see my central theme being made by other people. The AR isn't a fringe item: it is the most popular rifle in America, and the reason for that is not because "it can be used to kill lots of people quickly", although it certainly can. It is popular for all the reasons I mentioned, because it is an excellent choice for all of them.

And it is probably the BEST choice for a first time gun owner who wants to learn to shoot, and doesn't want to buy more than one gun.

By the way, most of my other rifles, some well over 100 years old, can kill lots of people very, very quickly also, plus they can kill people on the other side of thick barriers and trees which would be "AR 15 bulletproof."

-----

Now see what you made me do? You got me going again. I was going to make this a PM, but now I think I should just add it to the thread.

Actually, because I am far from an AR expert, I would welcome some constructive comments by those who are AR experts.

Biggfoot44 · Mar 3, 2018

As usual , Chad is *Correct* .

Circa 1958 , Aramlite div of Fairchild Industries submitted 10 examples of their " ArmaLite AR-15 " to the Mil for testing . This was a reduced scale copy of their AR-10 , including charging handle on TOP . FWIW , Fairchild used 25rd magzines.

1959 - Fairchild sold the rights to Colt . Colt moved charging handle to rear , and various minor changes, primarily for ease of mfg. These were " Colt ArmaLite AR-15 Mod 1 " . 1,100 of these were eventually sent to Viet Nam for field testing.

At that point the USAF wanted to buy 30,000 of the AR-15 Mod 1. But instead ensued years of politics within both the Pentagon and Congress. More rounds of trials , more minor modifications, before the adoption of the M16 circa 1966 .

**********

But as intriguing as that is to weapons aficionados and history buffs , the above is not relevant or enlightening to the current political debate .

As overwhelming used for more than 50 years , the IMPORTANT distinction has been AR-15 = Semiauto, M16 ( & subsequent derivatives) = select fire .

And to rationalize this to the historical sticklers among us - There never was a factory select fire marked literally as " Colt AR-15 " , they were marked Colt ArmaLite AR-15 Mod 1 " .

Decoy · Mar 4, 2018

one of my favs

Amigo109 · Mar 7, 2018

Now I want an ar15

How much are they and where can they be purchased?

Cap10John · Mar 7, 2018

Rarely. No select fire.

03flhtcui · Mar 7, 2018

Perfect answer

darrenlobo · Mar 7, 2018

Answer the question with a question. Who are you to ask that question? They might say we're all potential victims that's who. Refer them to the movie "Minority Report"

There is no such thing as preemptive law enforcement in a free society. Many gun rights haters want drugs legalized. They can't grasp the contradiction in wanting to ban one & legalize the other.

The first thing that needs to be faced is that things are never simple. The problem is complex and simplistic approaches like banning guns or putting police in the schools won’t work for a number of reasons. No issue can be looked at in a vacuum. Therefore, as with any issue, we have to start with basic principles and moral implications. That means talking about the one moral imperative that guides us in all human relationships, the non-aggression principle. It is immoral to initiate the use of force or the threat of force against peaceful people. In other words, a person has to be actually engaging in aggression or credibly threatening to do so before it is morally justifiable to use force in retaliation. What does that have to do with guns? The mere possession of an inanimate object such a gun aggresses against no one. There is no moral justification for taking guns away from people who adhere to the non-aggression principle since this involves initiating the use of force to separate them from their weapons.

Property rights are part of this equation also. People have a right to their property. Guns are property. Separating people from their guns by force is theft of those weapons.

rooster · Mar 7, 2018

A real simple answer to the "Why an AR15" is because it is customizable. Not its shooting characteristics. I enjoy changing the configuration of my AR's. Put rails on them, change what's on the rails. It's an enjoyable hobby. What is the big deal? Then I shoot them to see how accurate I can get.... And? So?

I like to tweak my car to 600hp. Does that mean I go 250mph down main street?

My friend is a body builder. Real buff. Does that mean he goes out looking for a fight?

I have magazines to fit my AR's from 5 rnds to 100rnds. Does that mean I want to go looking for someone to shoot?

Does how many rounds each magazine holds make any difference at all?

My dad (actually, his whole generation) won the 2nd World War with an 8rnd clip in an M1 Garand. Don't tell him clip/mag size makes a difference? So it's the size of the mag, not how fast can you swap a clip, magazine, speed loader, moon clip, that makes the difference between a safe world and a not safe world. Right? Come on!

Are you going to tell me that spraying lead uncontrollably with a bump stock will kill more people than a sniper will? Well, with no one firing back I don't think it matters!

Are you going to tell me that a bump stock is different than holding your belt loop and pulling the gun in the same manner? You know you will get the same result. Or are you that stupid not to be able to figure that out? - That's where the bump stock concept came from!!

You can't put the Genie back in the bottle. You can make drugs illegal but you can't get rid of them. You can make booze illegal but, well, you know about that.

Guns exist. FACT! Making them illegal won't get rid of them. It will only keep honest people from defending themselves against the bad guys.

Wake up! Smell the coffee!

Emtbreid · Mar 7, 2018

clandestine said:
Here is the most simple explanation.

A quality Civilian Semi Auto AR (Safe-Semi) is equal to a current issued M4A1 (Safe-Semi-Burst). Same exact foundation. They add a few parts for the sear mechanism, but the foundation is the same. The design wasn't modified when the military adopted it, nor was it changed when machineguns we're banned in 86. Colt and a few companies made it a little harder to convert them, but the gun is the same.

The legal difference is that a full auto or burst variant cant be made for general consumption anymore. They can be purchased if one has $20k. The government made this happen by banning them I'm 1986. This is the important distinction. It's a legal distinction, and not a technical one.

Almost all Civilian AR's come with M16 Carriers. It aids in reliability. It does not make it a machinegun by having that one part.

The only difference in the Civilian AR and the M4A1 is a change in a few parts. Some are easier to do it, some are not. Doing it without the proper paperwork or licensing is something we legal gun owners don't do.

My Windham WW-15 HBC has an m-16 bcg.

armed_economist · Mar 7, 2018

Hollywood, California... Did that gun come out of a parallel universe?

protegeV · Mar 7, 2018

armed_economist said:
Hollywood, California... Did that gun come out of a parallel universe?

Armalite originally based in Hollywood.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ArmaLite

In the 50s, before California became commiefornia I suppose.

chesapeakeIRON · Mar 7, 2018

iH8DemLibz said:
The military doesn't have AR15s.

It would serve us well if people like him pointed that out.

Just catching up and seeing this video, this was my thought as well. Someone as well spoken is the then quoted by the antis....other than that he was on point

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clandestine · Mar 7, 2018

chesapeakeIRON said:
Just catching up and seeing this video, this was my thought as well. Someone as well spoken is the then quoted by the antis....other than that he was on point

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The Military does have AR15's. Just renamed. Look 2 posts up.

Awesome answer to b.s. question "why someone needs ar-15"

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