Trigger options for a classic Sig Pxxx

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    Shamr0ck

    Shamr0ck

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 6, 2011
    2,505
    Frederick
    I need some education on trigger options for my very first pistol.

    I've recently begun pistol shooting again after an approximate 25 year hiatus and one of the things I am noticing with my DA/SA Sig is the amount of take up in the trigger. This take up is not helping me stop the 'flinch' as I'm anticipating the sear releasing. If i shoot the Sig and then the PPQ, I'm more accurate with the PPQ (I think because of the differences in the triggers)

    The pistol has Sig's Short Reset Trigger fire control group already installed and that certainly helps with getting off shot #2 onwards, but shot #1 is a whole different story - I generally shoot shot #1 from a cocked hammer - no need to aggravate my marksmanship with the DA/SA differences. I'll get there eventually, but one thing at a time.

    I know this isn't a striker fired pistol nor a 1911, but I'm curious if there are after market solutions (or OEM solutions for that matter) which allow for safe operation and less take up.

    I don't think i have strong feelings about flat trigger vs curved trigger bow, but some initial searching has turned up two options which may fit the bill.

    From GrayGuns:

    https://www.recoilweb.com/grayguns-new-edc-straight-trigger-kit-for-sig-p-series-pistols-142774.html

    https://grayguns.com/product/edc-sig-sauer-straight-optimized-trigger/

    From ArmoryCraft:

    https://www.armorycraft.com/product...0-p226-p227-p228-p229-flat-adjustable-trigger

    I need to verify the width of the trigger opening in the frame to see if either of these will work.

    Has anyone installed these? Thoughts? Any thing else I can do?

    TIA -
     
    Hawkeye

    Hawkeye

    The Leatherstocking
    Jan 29, 2009
    3,971
    Shamr0ck said:
    I've recently begun pistol shooting again after an approximate 25 year hiatus and one of the things I am noticing with my DA/SA Sig is the amount of take up in the trigger. This take up is not helping me stop the 'flinch' as I'm anticipating the sear releasing.
    Click to expand...

    That's not unique to SIGs, it's just a characteristic of a DA/SA trigger. I know you know this, but practice, practice, practice. Dry fire the crap out of it, and concentrate on maintaining a steady even pull and letting the sear release surprise you. You can t rain out the flinch.

    I know this isn't a striker fired pistol nor a 1911, but I'm curious if there are after market solutions (or OEM solutions for that matter) which allow for safe operation and less take up.

    I don't think i have strong feelings about flat trigger vs curved trigger bow, but some initial searching has turned up two options which may fit the bill.

    From GrayGuns:

    https://grayguns.com/product/edc-sig-sauer-straight-optimized-trigger/
    Click to expand...

    This is what you want. First of all, Bruce is a genius, and second of all he actually consults for SIG on the design of the trigger systems for their pistols and some of their "competition" oriented stuff. The P320 X-series guns are his babies, for example. You won't find a better guy for SIG stuff than him.
     
    Shamr0ck

    Shamr0ck

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 6, 2011
    2,505
    Frederick
    Hawkeye said:
    That's not unique to SIGs, it's just a characteristic of a DA/SA trigger. I know you know this, but practice, practice, practice. Dry fire the crap out of it, and concentrate on maintaining a steady even pull and letting the sear release surprise you. You can t rain out the flinch.



    This is what you want. First of all, Bruce is a genius, and second of all he actually consults for SIG on the design of the trigger systems for their pistols and some of their "competition" oriented stuff. The P320 X-series guns are his babies, for example. You won't find a better guy for SIG stuff than him.
    Click to expand...

    Thank you!

    I'll go measure the frame and get Bruce called today. I also need to pick up some dummy rounds/snap caps so I can dry fire here at the house. That will be a new training component for me but have seen how productive it has been for my daughter in 3p Smallbore.
     
    Blaster229

    Blaster229

    God loves you, I don't.
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 14, 2010
    46,548
    Glen Burnie
    It's not a trigger issue. Although the pistol could use a better one.
    You're flinching because you're worrying about the recoil and muzzle flash, so you anticipate it and try to counter it by pushing down.
    You need to just shoot a couple hundred rounds, not worrying about aiming, and get used to what the pistol does so you can work in harmony with it. The pistol will never change what it does, but we do.

    If you're listening to the old saying"let the gun surprise you when it goes off", don't. That's just what it is, old.
    You need to know when it's going to go off, so you don't flinch. You won't flinch because you know what's going to happen.
    It's like this....
    If someone were hiding in your closet, you didn't know, Ave they jumped out, your going to jump.
    If you know someone is going to jump out at you, you'll know, and it won't be a surprise. That's you being in control of you

    We need to be in charge of ourselves as the pistol. Not the other way around.

    No trigger is going to control the recoil you're anticipating. That's up to you.
    A smooth trigger will allow you to keep better sight alignment up until the shot. But sight alignment is a moot point at the time the gun goes off and recoil takes over.

    So search out your trigger and all, but you need to just simply shoot and acclimate yourself to what the gun is doing first.

    If a new trigger solves the flinching problem, I would have invented one and be a gazillionaire.
     
    Shamr0ck

    Shamr0ck

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 6, 2011
    2,505
    Frederick
    Blaster229 said:
    It's not a trigger issue. Although the pistol could use a better one.
    You're flinching because you're worrying about the recoil and muzzle flash, so you anticipate it and try to counter it by pushing down.
    You need to just shoot a couple hundred rounds, not worrying about aiming, and get used to what the pistol does so you can work in harmony with it. The pistol will never change what it does, but we do.

    If you're listening to the old saying"let the gun surprise you when it goes off", don't. That's just what it is, old.
    You need to know when it's going to go off, so you don't flinch. You won't flinch because you know what's going to happen.
    It's like this....
    If someone were hiding in your closet, you didn't know, Ave they jumped out, your going to jump.
    If you know someone is going to jump out at you, you'll know, and it won't be a surprise. That's you being in control of you

    We need to be in charge of ourselves as the pistol. Not the other way around.

    No trigger is going to control the recoil you're anticipating. That's up to you.
    A smooth trigger will allow you to keep better sight alignment up until the shot. But sight alignment is a moot point at the time the gun goes off and recoil takes over.

    So search out your trigger and all, but you need to just simply shoot and acclimate yourself to what the gun is doing first.

    If a new trigger solves the flinching problem, I would have invented one and be a gazillionaire.
    Click to expand...

    fair enough and thank you for weighing in - certainly sounded like i was looking for a magic solution in the first post, but realize I'm a big part of the problem (if not all of the problem). Never thought of shooting without worrying about aiming - great way to acclimate to the recoil/report though and will do that on my next trip.

    Didn't have this issue when I shot every weekend, but that was a LONG time ago and found it interesting that the flinching issue seemed to be isolated to the DA/SA and not the striker.

    second range trip lead to more success and some 10 shot groups with which I was happy. Shot 180 rounds and found myself with much less of a death grip on the pistol and had a final 10 shot group of 2" @ 3m. Once more groups get that tight, i'll extend the target distance and keep working.

    Again - thanks!
     
    Blaster229

    Blaster229

    God loves you, I don't.
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 14, 2010
    46,548
    Glen Burnie
    Shamr0ck said:
    fair enough and thank you for weighing in - certainly sounded like i was looking for a magic solution in the first post, but realize I'm a big part of the problem (if not all of the problem). Never thought of shooting without worrying about aiming - great way to acclimate to the recoil/report though and will do that on my next trip.

    Didn't have this issue when I shot every weekend, but that was a LONG time ago and found it interesting that the flinching issue seemed to be isolated to the DA/SA and not the striker.

    second range trip lead to more success and some 10 shot groups with which I was happy. Shot 180 rounds and found myself with much less of a death grip on the pistol and had a final 10 shot group of 2" @ 3m. Once more groups get that tight, i'll extend the target distance and keep working.

    Again - thanks!
    Click to expand...

    I just know that recoil is 1 thing we can ignore and learn to control without having to actually think about controlling. Unlike aiming and smooth trigger, we have to be cognizant of those actions while performing them.

    When I take new shooters to shoot the first time, this is what we do. We just shoot without worrying about anything else. 100 rounds or so usually does the trick enough for that range day. Certainly doesn't make it a non issue in 1 trip, but enough to help them work on other basics in that trip.

    Next is not so much "taming" the recoil, but being able to work with it and using it to incorporate into our shooting/aiming ritual.
    Instead of keeping the recoil down by anticipating, when we know the muzzle is going to rise, that is something we CAN control. That's why follow through after a shot is critical. Stay down on the front sight, follow that upwards recoil so that we can bring that muzzle/sight back down to reset our sight picture, back on center mass. This is the time when a good short trigger reset helps. Less travel/movement as we are working back to target.

    Ok, I've bloviated enough here. :thumbsup:
     
    Racer Doug14

    Racer Doug14

    Thread killer
    MDS Supporter
    Patriot Picket
    Feb 22, 2013
    8,007
    Millers Maryland
    I have the Armory Craft flat faced trigger in my P229. It did improve take up and over travel. Although, DA take up is a safety of sorts. I added the SRT trigger kit also. It's an easy upgrade,the trigger. You could also send it off. Sigarmorer dot com could work magic on it.
    It all depends on what you want. And, what you want to spend.

    Also, I agree with Blaster. Practice practice practice. Time behind the trigger is best. Then you'll understand the pistol and what you want.
     
    Last edited:
    C

    ClutchyMcClutcherson

    Active Member
    Aug 29, 2016
    703
    Odenton, MD
    A lot of new shooters struggle with anticipation of recoil, especially in a DA/SA. Dry fire practice like others have said will help. Also mixing in dummy rounds in your mags will help too. Keep practicing and have fun.
     
    Blaster229

    Blaster229

    God loves you, I don't.
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 14, 2010
    46,548
    Glen Burnie
    ClutchyMcClutcherson said:
    A lot of new shooters struggle with anticipation of recoil, especially in a DA/SA. Dry fire practice like others have said will help. Also mixing in dummy rounds in your mags will help too. Keep practicing and have fun.
    Click to expand...
    Dry firing only helps with someone learning to keep sights aligned on the target. Smooth trigger doesn't help someone from anticipating recoil.
     
    C

    ClutchyMcClutcherson

    Active Member
    Aug 29, 2016
    703
    Odenton, MD
    I’m not disagreeing that recoil causes anticipation. I’m saying that he’s having trouble with the travel on the DA trigger press. Dry firing will help with that. And loading dummy’s mixed in his mags will help him further identify and feel exactly what he’s doing.

    Doing what you’re describing of shooting without aiming also helps with target anxiety. I didn’t say that wouldn’t help. I am saying there’s additional things he can do to help. I’m surprised we have any disagreement over this. Seems like pretty common advice.
     
    Shamr0ck

    Shamr0ck

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 6, 2011
    2,505
    Frederick
    as always - lots of very giving folks on MdS offering tips and helpful suggestions.

    I'm enjoying getting back on the firing line and since Mrs Shamr0ck is also interested it should turn into a great way to spend time together.

    Thanks again everyone!
     
    Blaster229

    Blaster229

    God loves you, I don't.
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 14, 2010
    46,548
    Glen Burnie
    ClutchyMcClutcherson said:
    I’m not disagreeing that recoil causes anticipation. I’m saying that he’s having trouble with the travel on the DA trigger press. Dry firing will help with that. And loading dummy’s mixed in his mags will help him further identify and feel exactly what he’s doing.

    Doing what you’re describing of shooting without aiming also helps with target anxiety. I didn’t say that wouldn’t help. I am saying there’s additional things he can do to help. I’m surprised we have any disagreement over this. Seems like pretty common advice.
    Click to expand...
    Maybe I'm just confused. We're on the same page. I guess :)
    Guess I'm cut from a different cloth. I hated the stock 229 trigger, but never had an issue. Once you've learned to ignore muzzle flash, recoil, and all of that, you can concentrate on front sight and how to shoot your trigger. Any trigger.

    I guess I'm thinking "flinch" means pushing down in anticipation, when it really means "movement of the pistol while using the trigger"?
     
    Last edited:
    engineerbrian

    engineerbrian

    JMB fan club
    Sep 3, 2010
    10,149
    Fredneck
    Shamr0ck said:
    as always - lots of very giving folks on MdS offering tips and helpful suggestions.

    I'm enjoying getting back on the firing line and since Mrs Shamr0ck is also interested it should turn into a great way to spend time together.

    Thanks again everyone!
    Click to expand...

    You should look into Monocacy Pistol Club, its right around the corner from you.

    A few of us here are members and can sponsor you.
     
    cstone

    cstone

    Active Member
    Dec 12, 2018
    842
    Baltimore, MD
    Learn to feel the trigger reset. The P229 DA/SA has a very distinctive reset, unlike a Glock, IMO. Since I rarely shoot single shot but normally double, or triple shot strings, the take up on the trigger is minimal as my trigger finger almost never comes all the way back. Master the reset and your split times will go down.

    Anyone can shoot fast and most people can shoot accurately, but the skill to master is shooting fast and accurate...while moving.

    IMO, Rob Leatham has posted some of the best YT videos on shooting handguns. After that, you might want to take the money you would spend on a trigger and go to something like Front Sight or Thunder Ranch. The best money spent learning to shoot is more ammunition. Just a thought.
     
    Shamr0ck

    Shamr0ck

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 6, 2011
    2,505
    Frederick
    engineerbrian said:
    You should look into Monocacy Pistol Club, its right around the corner from you.

    A few of us here are members and can sponsor you.
    Click to expand...

    Hey there!

    I joined MPC this past spring and did so mostly so my youngest had a 50 yard range to practice 3p smallbore. I have been over to shoot pistols a couple of times though.

    Interestingly enough, it was the range orientation of having to shoot on the bullseye range which highlighted how perishable a skill pistol shooting is. between my flinch and German Combat sights (need to cover, not lollypop) i had a darn hard time getting on the paper.

    Free time coinciding with winter weather lead us to also get a family membership at TMGN and I've been shooting there once a week with plans to go more frequently.

    I'm making notes and appreciate everyone's input. Always open to learning and certainly accept that I'm the issue and not the pistol.
     
    Parshooter

    Parshooter

    Silent Majority Member
    Mar 20, 2013
    354
    East NC
    Excellent thoughts! Thanks, Blaster 229 for the lesson. I've done this by doing regular range sessions, but didn't realize what I was doing. I also really recommend the flat trigger option for the Sig. My 226 Legion SAO has a trigger like that with super short reset. When I was going to the range regularly, I was able to achieve groups like this. But without regular practice, things deteriorate quickly...
     

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    Biggfoot44

    Biggfoot44

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 2, 2009
    33,137
    There is such a thing as Recoil Anticipation.
    There is such a thing as trigger control issues , be it a DA pull per se , or in transition from DA to SA .


    Blaster's advice is addressing the first.
    Clutchy's advice is addressing the second.
    A specific shooter could have problems with one or the other , or both.

    If we were all together at the range , we could analyse Shamrock's techniques , and work from there . From over the internet , there is insufficient data to know which .

    ************************

    Speaking on traditional DA/ SA pistols generally .

    Pxxx Sigs generally nice triggers . My ( civilian ) P225 ( stock, but well broken in) has the best trigger of a DA/SA I have yet had the aquaintence .
     
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