CVA Wolf accuracy issues

The #1 community for Gun Owners of the Northeast

Member Benefits:

  • No ad networks!
  • Discuss all aspects of firearm ownership
  • Discuss anti-gun legislation
  • Buy, sell, and trade in the classified section
  • Chat with Local gun shops, ranges, trainers & other businesses
  • Discover free outdoor shooting areas
  • View up to date on firearm-related events
  • Share photos & video with other members
  • ...and so much more!
  • lazarus

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 23, 2015
    13,678
    So my Wolf has been fine the last few years, but I took it to the range to sight it for early muzzleloader. Just all over the paper. I'd get a good group, and then the next round would be 8" off. I opened a new container of 777 (open one is 2 or 3 years old, stored well, but still old). Groups tightened up, but still massive fliers. I noticed some of the primers were filthy, which I hadn't really seen before. And the accuracy almost always seemed to be terrible after taking out the breech plug to really clean it up thoroughly.

    I did a little research when I got back. I am wondering if there is incorrect headspacing on the primer causing a lot of blow back. Sometimes the primer will seat properly (probably when some carbon has built up), but then once I cleaned the crap out of it, it wouldn't seat right. The breech plug head was a lot dirtier than I've ever seen it before (even after 40 frustrating shots).

    I was thinking it was the scope, and it could still be, as I'd adjust it and it wouldn't move much, or it would jump a huge distance.

    I've ordered a new scope, a 209 breech plug and I am going to go pickup some Blackhorn 209 at BP on my lunch today. Plus I am going to try Winchester 209 primers as they are supposedly about .005" longer, which should do a better job headspacing if it is short.

    I also noticed with my firing pin channel cover cranked all the way down hard, it is recessed from the breech face a few hundredths. If I back it off slightly, but to the limit of finger tighteness (using my thumb nail), it is roughly flush with the breech face now (probably brought it up .01").

    Any thoughts? Anything else I could look at? This gun has shot okay in the past. Doesn't appear corroded in storage (it is SS and I see no pitting or anything in the barrel).

    PS I had figured a new breech plug isn't a bad idea and while I am at, switching to BH209. would be good to hopefully eliminate powder as an issue (for moisture and everything I've read BH has more consistent burn and doesn't have humidity issues) and I am tired of the significant clean-up my ML needs between shots and at the end of a range session.
     
    Last edited:

    lazarus

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 23, 2015
    13,678
    One pleasant surprise. CVA is out of their firing pin bushing shim kit. I called and the guy in customer service confirmed they were out. But they have the individual pieces for repairs on hand. So they’ll “build me” the kit and ship it out to me in the next day or two. Still have to pay for it, but nice customer service IMHO!

    Thought I’d share that positive experience. They’d take it for warranty repair, but I’d be out shipping and without the ML for, I assume, several weeks.

    This way I have a chance of having the shim kit in time to resight it in. And I can just have the firing pin bushing hand tight/spring tension to the proper depth for now. And just be careful to check it between firings until I have the shims on hand.
     

    wilcam47

    Ultimate Member
    Apr 4, 2008
    25,976
    Changed zip code
    Id check the scope mount and base screws and make sure they are tight and blue loctited in. Also get a good bore cleaner that removes lead. You may have lead build up that you cant really see. Also what type of bullets you using?
     

    engineerbrian

    JMB fan club
    Sep 3, 2010
    10,148
    Fredneck
    My CVA Optima was all over the place when i got it a few years ago. I tried everything you could think of to tighten the groups and finally sent it back to CVA. They ended up sending me a new gun and it shoots great.

    Maybe you can send the gun back and skip early ML season and just hunt the late season. The leaves are still green on the trees so we are really still hunting at bow range.
     

    lazarus

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 23, 2015
    13,678
    It was shooting fine last year. So I am at a bit of a head noodling point on what could be up with it.

    I’ll take the scope off to double check the mount screws. I am 99.9% sure I used blue locktite when I put them on last year. I used it for 2 years with ghost ring sights and accuracy was fine. Then dropped a scope on it for the late season and no accuracy issues in the 10-12 rounds I shot at the range to confirm zero. One scope ring to base screw was only hand tight and I cranked it down. But that was halfway through and still had some accuracy issues by the end.

    I am using .44 240gr XTP in harvester sabots on top of 100gr volume of FFFg 777. I tried 105 and 110gr in there also with no differences. The sabot petals appear to be spreading well and I am finding most of them about 20ft from the bench.

    Only thing I can definitely see is that some of the primers were coming out covered in crap.

    I’ll go over the scope base and scope screws with a fine toothed comb. I am planning to switch to BH209 powder when I head to the range early next week. I picked up some CCI magnum primers and some Winchester 209 primers to try. If the shims come in time I will try shimming it.

    One thing I noticed is that the accuracy would definitely go to crap every time I took the breech plug out to clean it and then put it back in. That is partly why I am wondering about blow by issues causing it. Cleaning out the carbon around the primer pocket maybe causing it and the next round it has “sealed” it up from fouling.

    I am hoping with the much less fouling from BH209 I can get consistency if nothing else. And it also means I could get it zeroed and then just leave it dirty, load it and go shoot the early season. Rather than worrying about cold bore, WITH it cleaned to the nines being different than cold bore and dirty. The later I can easily replicate by letting it sit on the rack for awhile before taking my last shot.

    Same thing with my hunting rifles. I don’t clean it after confirming zero before I hunt. Regularly I’ll run at least a patch or a pull through cleaner every range session or two. ML is the only one I clean religiously between shooting sessions. Otherwise bad corrosion.
     

    lazarus

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 23, 2015
    13,678
    My CVA Optima was all over the place when i got it a few years ago. I tried everything you could think of to tighten the groups and finally sent it back to CVA. They ended up sending me a new gun and it shoots great.

    Maybe you can send the gun back and skip early ML season and just hunt the late season. The leaves are still green on the trees so we are really still hunting at bow range.

    I am tempted to. That said, other than a flier that wasn’t on paper, the worst I saw would equate to about a 4-5” group at 50yds. Which isn’t great, but that isn’t particularly worse than my crossbow. If I am exceedingly careful I can get 3” groups at 50yds with my crossbow. But it is harder to do in part because it is more awkward.

    It is about seeing if I can get the consistency fixed, because I had several 2 and 3 shot 1.5-2MOA groups at 50 and 100yds. Not exactly my typical group size to evaluate accuracy, but only because I was usually messing with something every 2-4 rounds and then I’d get a massive flier or something.

    And my ML is going to care about hitting a leaf or a twig near a deer a lot less than a bolt will. So even if I have to keep my shots close, it had some arguments for it. One of those also being it is WAY less awkward to carry than my crossbow.

    I am not looking forward to all the leaves still being on everything. Maybe when it finally cools off Friday everything will just fall off in the span of a week. I can dream.

    PS so other than replacing the rifle itself, I should be able to check/test each component, other than the bullets and sabots, but they were giving me no problems the last few years. Though I do have an extra thing of sabots coming with the new plug. So I guess I could test those in case the plastic has gotten embrittled or something (the seperated sabots looked to me like they should. Base moderately expanded, petals peeled back at about 70-80 degree angle to the base. No petals sheered off).
     

    Neot

    Ultimate Member
    Mar 11, 2009
    2,394
    South County
    Id check the scope mount and base screws and make sure they are tight and blue loctited in. Also get a good bore cleaner that removes lead. You may have lead build up that you cant really see. Also what type of bullets you using?

    This would be my suggestion as well. It doesn't make much sense for a gun that hasn't been damaged to suddenly not be able to group. What kind of scope is it? I know some of the ones they include with the muzzleloaders sometimes aren't of the best quality and may not hold up over time.
     

    lazarus

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 23, 2015
    13,678
    It is a Bushnell Banner 1-4x32. Billed specifically as a shotgun scope. It lived on my 10/23 for about a year and worked fine till I dropped it on my Wolf last year.
     

    Mike3888

    Mike3888
    Feb 21, 2013
    1,125
    Dundalk, Md-Mifflin,Pa
    The only time head space comes into play is in smokeless muzzleloaders. And the whole idea is to have a slight crush on primer to create a better seal.Production guns are just that. ( production guns ) I would check scope then resolve your primers not sealing. In your case your gonna have to try different primers to reduce the blow by and that's exactly what it is. My primers look the same when then come out as when they went in. But I'm not shooting a cva.
    On another note if shooting sabots eventually your gonna have to scrub the piss out of the barrel.
    Good Luck.
     

    lazarus

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 23, 2015
    13,678
    The only time head space comes into play is in smokeless muzzleloaders. And the whole idea is to have a slight crush on primer to create a better seal.Production guns are just that. ( production guns ) I would check scope then resolve your primers not sealing. In your case your gonna have to try different primers to reduce the blow by and that's exactly what it is. My primers look the same when then come out as when they went in. But I'm not shooting a cva.
    On another note if shooting sabots eventually your gonna have to scrub the piss out of the barrel.
    Good Luck.

    At least in my limited experience in my Wolf is they don’t leave much residues a fair amount near the throat (as that a real term for a ML? Where the bullet sits when seated on the powder anyway). A few passes of a bronze brush and soapy water usually scrubs it all out.

    I’ve got CCI standard, magnum and Winchester 209 primers on hand for my next range trip. So I’ll experiment with that as well. Previously they all did come out as they went in. Not sure what changed. Maybe time and cranking down the firing pin bushing too hard or something has resulted in there being just enough for there to be blow by.

    Maybe it isn’t having any impact on accuracy and it is the scope that is cooked. Not sure. Lots to check on Monday (or Tuesday).
     

    Pale Ryder

    Ultimate Member
    Jan 12, 2009
    6,234
    Millersville
    Following, not sure what you'll find.
    Interested in why you only went up in your powder charges. 105 and 110 grains. Maybe try to lower it a bit, one of my sidelocks prefers 90 grains of Pyrodex.
     

    6Den

    Active Member
    Feb 10, 2013
    835
    Howard County
    You're also using 3f instead of 2f, which will generate even higher pressures with 100+ charges. Your sabot might not be up to snuff.
     

    Mike3888

    Mike3888
    Feb 21, 2013
    1,125
    Dundalk, Md-Mifflin,Pa
    You can do what you want, but the shim kit you are talking about probably won't fix the sooty primers. Production guns with that type of breech plug are sized big to accept all primer manufacturers. If you don't get it worked out I have an original knight mk 85 stainless predator model that will stack 4 shots at 100 yards. I'm all smokeless now. No more B/P here
     

    Doco Overboard

    Ultimate Member
    Muzzleloader sabot combinations shoot best with a bullet as close to bore diameter as you can get.
    Sometimes reducing the main charge will reduce the possibility of an occasional flyer or remedy inconsistency from the sabot being blown from over pressure.
    The last CVA rifle I worked on had tapped holes to insufficient depth for the scope base which was compounded by using loc tite.
    Once the bore was thoroughly cleaned of plastic fouling and the main charge reduced It drove tacks.
    It was a .452 Speer bullet, 90 gr. of pyro RS with mmp high pressure sabot.
    Don’t forget to exert consistent pressure on the loading rod and make sure the bullet /sabot is started straight every time. Wipe between shots to help improve accuracy and consistency for a cold barrel hunting rifle.
    Good luck.
     

    lazarus

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 23, 2015
    13,678
    You're also using 3f instead of 2f, which will generate even higher pressures with 100+ charges. Your sabot might not be up to snuff.

    See up thread. The spent sabot I’ve picked aren’t showing any signs that they can’t handle it. I may try a lighter charge as well. I’ve been using 100gr charges of FFFg 777 for 3 years now and this is the first year it suddenly seems to be causing an issue (or I should say that there is an issue).

    Yeah, I’d been reading up on blow by and read that sizing large “issue” to accommodate all primer sizes. Partly why I picked up a box of Winchester primers as those seem to be as large as anyone makes a primer. The shims should allow me to get a very slight crush of the primer (just .001-.002”) to seal it up then.

    I am not convinced that is what is causing my issues. However until this range trip, I’ve never noticed blow-by issues before and not simply that I was getting them and just didn’t notice. Before this trip my primers were coming out nice and clean every time. Now 1 in 3 is filthy.

    I am thinking it is either blow-by or scope. Or he’ll, maybe I am dealing with more than one issue (could be powder, but I don’t see my unopened bottle of 777 having gone bad even if it was sitting in an O-ringed box for 3 years).
     

    Doco Overboard

    Ultimate Member
    Ive also seen consistency degraded in one fell swoop on cap lock and inline rifles that use a nipple or tube for ignition systems. Once the venturi is gone from erosion repeatability usually goes with it.T/c addressed this a few years ago with the vented breech plug on the scout carbines and its almost always a substantial improvement on cva sidelocks that have a bolster arrangement screwed into the side of the barrel. You drill a small hole in the bolster to equalize pressure in the bolster once the caps ignited. Keeps air from being compressed in front of the flash.
    Wiping between shots also helps to control the carbon ring that is formed in front of the main charge on subsequent loadings. Remington used to make a primer for .410 shot shells that worked well in the MZloaders. This is what you are seeing on your range rod after a few shots as the mark you made on it climbs higher away from the muzzle.
     

    Mike3888

    Mike3888
    Feb 21, 2013
    1,125
    Dundalk, Md-Mifflin,Pa
    You are correct on the primer crush. It should be right at about .002 thats right where my 2 custom plugs are at. And I understand the whole cva shim kit thing. That was their way to get the nose of the primer closer to bottoming out in plug but does absolutely nothing for the diameter. I would think if you shimmed it to much the gun won't close or could be dangerous, so be safe. And Doc is correct about bullet size in sabot. I'm not using sabots in my set ups. I'm running by bullets through a sizing die. This was shot this past Saturday at 200 yards.
     

    Attachments

    • image.jpg
      image.jpg
      106.2 KB · Views: 351

    lazarus

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 23, 2015
    13,678
    Yeah, I’ve read about the safety issues on crushing the primer. I plan to be extremely conservative in whatever I setup I do with the shims.
     

    Users who are viewing this thread

    Latest posts

    Forum statistics

    Threads
    274,922
    Messages
    7,259,087
    Members
    33,349
    Latest member
    christian04

    Latest threads

    Top Bottom