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Old May 9th, 2021, 08:43 PM #1
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QuickLoad vs GRT

I had read about GRT (Gordon’s Reloading Tool) before but I have QuickLoad and have been pleased with the results so I never really considered investing further. However after reading Boule’s post in the LeverRevolution thread. I figured I would check it out.

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Originally Posted by boule View Post
Just fyi. If the powder is not in Quickload, try GRT for a change. The two programs are not completely interchangable but often yield comparable results. Quickload is still curated but updates are slow, GRT is in development.
First of all, I didn’t realize it is free. Maybe this is because it’s still under development. So if anyone else is interested I would encourage you to download it and check it out. It may not be free forever.

Here is the link to the download. You do have to create an account before you can download the zip file. https://grtools.de/doku.php?id=en:doku:install

If you are already familiar with Quickload the main screen is a bit nicer looking. It looks different but overall the main parts are somewhat similar. There is a module to open the cartridge database and if necessary make modifications to the specs. They have a fairly comprehensive powder database and projectile database. The settings are all metric but you can easily change those to more familiar non-metric units through the context menus or simply clicking the small measure icon next to the specific field that you want to change.

Quickload Main Screen


GRT Main Screen


Like Quickload you grab the case, projectile and powder components from the drop down library tool. Unlike Quickload the output and graph curves update immediately with each change. No need to click the “apply and calc” button like QL.

There are quite a bit more tools that I briefly checked out, but I have not yet had the chance to fully examine. These three features that I did explore are not included in Quickload.

The Propellant Burn Rate Chart is pretty well organized and you are able to sort the list by Progressive Burn Rate, Brisance or a combined formula. They specifically note that these charts are GRT specific and may differ from other charts.


There is also a Parametric Powder Search Tool. I haven’t really messed around with it yet, but it appears that you type in the parameters that you desire for your load, and the program then pulls the powders which would perform similarly.


They also have an Optimal Barrel Time calculator. If you are not already familiar with OBT theories they rely on the physics calculations of the barrel harmonics and try to calculate the best “time” that the projectile should exit the barrel where it would be closest to the barrel axis. I ran the tool using a proven load and the result is pretty close to the charge that I use.


There are lots of other extras but I check those out later.


Like I mentioned this examination all started from @Squaregrouper’s post to determine if LeverRevolution powder is a good suitable substitute for H4350 in 6.5 Creedmoor loads. So the first thing I did was enter my my own personal 6.5 Creedmoor proven load using H4350 and compare it to LeverRevolution.

Here is the output for LeverRevolution


Here is the output for H4350


So according to GRT these two powders using the exact same load are a bit different the LR seems to be about 12,000 PSI higher than H4350 producing a muzzle velocity about 120fps faster. That’s pretty substantial.

This simple comparison however struck me as pretty strange because the MV reported by GRT was actually about 100fps faster than my QL data and also faster than my verified MV data which has been repeated over 400+ rounds.

So there seemed to be some differences between the two. I did find a few small differences between the case dimensions and the projectile dimensions. These were very small but I changed the GRT values to match my QL numbers. The MV changed but only slightly. Then I noticed what appeared to be quite a few differences between the powder parameters.


So after playing around with the GRT parameters I modidied each to match the default values from the QL database.


After making this change the two programs reported almost identical interior ballistic output.

Quickload calculates 2779 fps


Vs GRT which calculated 2772


So in this example when all of the parameters for GRT are tuned to match the exact parameters in QL they report similar (almost identical) output. So my first question is to try and understand why the powder database within GRT is different from QL. Since my real chrono data is closer to QL I have to assume that the GRT data is wrong (or at least not accurate for my own conditions).

I have quite a lot of verified loads in QL for .223/5.56 and 300BO. I’ll try to compare those side by side too. I’m interested to know if any other members have compared GRT to QL and their real world data, or who would be willing to do so and post here.
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Old May 9th, 2021, 08:51 PM #2
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GRT makes no bones about their powder database needing some more maturity for certain powders. They don't even have a fair number of them (Lil Gun being one that I was wishing for tonight). Their bullet DB is obviously a little better.

OTOH, I tend to do a quick sanity check by comparing book loads to GRT output, and if the numbers mostly match, I tend to regard GRT's numbers as PROBABLY being valid for those loads. Always work up when you're in this kind of unknown territory, etc.

ETA: incidentally, you'd be the hero of the hour if you could figure out how to export some of those QL exclusive powders to GRT...
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Old May 9th, 2021, 09:18 PM #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erwos View Post
ETA: incidentally, you'd be the hero of the hour if you could figure out how to export some of those QL exclusive powders to GRT...
Here is the Lil-Gun parameters. Let me know how they compare to your book data.

Qex = 4090 kJ/kg
k = 1.2230
Ba = 0.8550
a0 = 3.0000
z1 = 0.461
z2 = (Not included in QL)
Pc = 1570 kg/M^3
Pcd = (Not included in QL)

Maybe try these and see what happens.
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Old May 10th, 2021, 07:01 AM #4
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pcd is 950 according to someone who claimed he got it from the manufacturer. No idea what z2 is supposed to be. I will say that messing with it didn't really lead to much in the way of velocity or pressure changes. I'm using .8328 because that was the default and the default z1 was pretty close to your number.

Velocities don't quite match up for supers to the Hornady book, but to be honest, I frequently wonder about the Hornady book's accuracy for anything past "loads that won't blow up your gun". Subs seemed more in line with what I expected from other sources.

ETA: according to the Discord, Lil Gun was added to the Patreon nightlies last month, and was apparently a real SOB to figure out due to inconsistency. Supposedly TrailBoss has many of the same problems but on a larger scale. I'll be curious to see how GRT configured Lil Gun vs how I did it...
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Last edited by erwos; May 10th, 2021 at 11:25 AM.
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Old May 10th, 2021, 07:12 AM #5
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I like gordon's as it works for me, it is free and its pretty damn precise for Freeware. But I don't have many options with running a Linux OS. They are missing many American Powders and they have a section on the discord server stating how to gather the information with shots through a chronograph to add the powders to GRT.

I have been messing around with it and the one time I used it and really learned something was trying to make a new load for 9mm. I am waiting on a Cast bullets group buy for MP 147grain mold and started doing the calcs based on that bullet. I noticed really quick the seating depth of that bullet, if sat lower, really spiked the pressures. I am using N320 for that and they have all of the V powders in there.
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Old May 10th, 2021, 12:46 PM #6
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I was just checking it out this morning. I've got 100 PPU 156gr SPRN .263" bullets on the way. I am going to try working up a subsonic load for my Howa 1500. See if it'll stabilize. Is it kind of stupid? Well yeah. At the same time, if I can get it running well, it'll be fun to plink with once my .30 cal can breaks NFA jail (I do not own a 300BO. TBH if I can get a reliable 6.5 grendel subsonic load working, that is good enough for me. The most I want to be using it for is quiet plinking to 100yds or less. Maybe some day it might be for quiet removal of groundhogs or something, but TBH that'll stay with my 10/22 and subs with my 22 can until I am somewhere with more property. Not so worried about a 45gr .223 bullet traveling 1000fps flying hither and yon. But a 156gr .264 doing the same...seems more dangerous and more likely.

Though my ideal short range groundhog whacking setup would be a 10" SBR bolt gun firing 45ACP with some 230gr XTP pills loaded hot.
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Old May 10th, 2021, 10:18 PM #7
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Iíve been working up a 5.56 match load using Nosler 69gr CCís with 23.8gr of IMR 8208XBR. When I developed the load with Quickload my actual MV was about 50fps lower then QL. I ended up messing with some if the parameters to get QL to match my results.

I just now ran the load in GRT using the default parameters and only changing the charge weight to 23.8gr. The MV result was only 5fps faster than my actual chrono data.

Very interesting
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Old May 11th, 2021, 09:14 AM #8
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I have not tried Quickload, but have been happy with Gordon's so far. Very impressive for being freeware and still needing refinement in a few areas.

As with all reloading, I check more than one source when possible and work up from a safe starting point.
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Old May 11th, 2021, 07:13 PM #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuitarmanNick View Post
I have not tried Quickload, but have been happy with Gordon's so far. Very impressive for being freeware and still needing refinement in a few areas.

As with all reloading, I check more than one source when possible and work up from a safe starting point.

For plinking I just go with a published load. For match loads, I usually compare the Nosler and Hornaday book data with the powder data from the manufacturer and establish a first pass from there. Then Iíll compare with QL.

The thing I really want to test is the Optimal Barrel Time module in GRT. My loads seem close to OBT but I may try to test out the exact recommendations from GRT and see how they compare.
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Old May 16th, 2021, 05:42 PM #10
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I tried to install get on my Mac in a windows partition but haven’t been able to get it to install yet. I’ve noticed that the last east ql update is not as accurate as the earlier one. My son tested lever in his 6.5 cm and it shot better than 4350 with Barnes lrx
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