Why COPS use .40: Q & A With a Cop

smokey · Jan 14, 2019

zoostation said:
Thanks for the tip on when .40 came out. But I kinda remember since I was there for it. I don't think you really grasped what I was saying. Anyway, just saying that there is no real difference in ballistics does not make it so. Most of the tests I have read from neutral sources show most quality 9mm JHP struggling to expand even over a half-inch, while most .40 tends to run .60-.65" in expansion. When talking about overall surface area .50 inches in diameter gives a total surface area of .39 square inches, .65 inches in diameter give a total surface area of .66 inches squared. So these numbers that the gun writers declare are "insignificant" really aren't. What's insignificant is the level of knowledge the great majority of the gun press has with anything beyond asking for a free lunch as Shot Show. Wound cavity is another aspect not measured and seemingly not understood by much of Google Gun public. It's significantly larger with .40 ammunition, people are welcome to research this on their own if they don''t believe me.

https://www.theboxotruth.com/the-buick-o-truth-1-windshields-insideout/

In addition to wound cavity volume, I posted earlier about momentum being a big difference that increases as you move from 9 up through 45(even at similarish ftlb energy levels, the heavier projectiles will have more momentum by...well...physics I guess). I know you know this already, but for others, this increase in momentum results in less deflection.

It's not uncommon for a LEO to have to shoot through a barrier, such as glass or a car door, to address a threat. In that kind of scenario, it's extremely advantageous to have less deflection. Even when not shooting through barriers, if you're able to aim for vitals, but need to go through an arm first(hello Miami shootout), a bullet crushing in a straight line is better than one deflecting in a random path.

jcutonilli · Jan 14, 2019

zoostation said:
Thanks for the tip on when .40 came out. But I kinda remember since I was there for it. I don't think you really grasped what I was saying. Anyway, just saying that there is no real difference in ballistics does not make it so. Most of the tests I have read from neutral sources show most quality 9mm JHP struggling to expand even over a half-inch, while most quality .40 JHP tends to reliably run .60-.65" in expansion. When talking about overall surface area .50 inches in diameter gives a total surface area of .39 square inches, .65 inches in diameter give a total surface area of .66 inches squared. So these numbers that the gun writers declare are "insignificant" really aren't. What's insignificant is the level of knowledge the great majority of the internet gun blog press seems to have with anything beyond walking around acting self-important and asking for free hats at Shot Show, and annoying the industry professionals who have to pretend to care what they think. Wound cavity is another aspect not measured and seemingly not understood by much of Google Gun public. It's significantly larger with .40 ammunition, people are welcome to research this on their own if they don''t believe me.

I don't think you understood what I was saying. Your claim was that 9mm has not changed in 20 years. I believe the changes to HP ammo occurred earlier, around the time 40 SW came out. That was 30 years ago. That may explain why you don't think there were many changes in the past 20 years.

Ballistics are things like ballistic coefficient,velocity and energy. I would not classify expansion as part of ballistics, but it depends on definitions.

According to

https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/

Several 9mm tests expanded to over .7 in, while many 40 tests don't expand over .5 in.

How well a bullet expands is irrelevant if you don't hit the person. One study that looked at the effectiveness of various handgun calibers. It looked at the only thing that really matters, does it actually stop the person.

https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power

That data suggests caliber is not a big of a factor as many make it out to be.

Eastern_Water_Moccasin · Jan 14, 2019

Wouldn't you all agree that if you were in a shootout, you shooting at someone and they're shooting back, that if you hit them with a larger round moving faster and weighing more, it would disrupt there returning fire? It seems that you would need those 2 extra 9mm rounds in the magazine to effectively end the gun fight. If I were in the woods a came across a black bear i would surely bet that .40 cal would keep more space between us than 9mm. 357Sig, even better. 10mm, even better. Just saying

Squaregrouper · Jan 14, 2019

Eastern_Water_Moccasin said:
Wouldn't you all agree that if you were in a shootout, you shooting at someone and they're shooting back, that if you hit them with a larger round moving faster and weighing more, it would disrupt there returning fire? It seems that you would need those 2 extra 9mm rounds in the magazine to effectively end the gun fight. If I were in the woods a came across a black bear i would surely bet that .40 cal would keep more space between us than 9mm. 357Sig, even better. 10mm, even better. Just saying

For bears, penetration is key and .357 Sig is the king of penetration.

ETA- Ron Jeremy with a .357 Sig would be the king of penetration.

KevinK · Jan 14, 2019

Eastern_Water_Moccasin said:
Wouldn't you all agree that if you were in a shootout, you shooting at someone and they're shooting back, that if you hit them with a larger round moving faster and weighing more, it would disrupt there returning fire? It seems that you would need those 2 extra 9mm rounds in the magazine to effectively end the gun fight. If I were in the woods a came across a black bear i would surely bet that .40 cal would keep more space between us than 9mm. 357Sig, even better. 10mm, even better. Just saying

squaregrouper said:
For bears, penetration is key and .357 Sig is the king of penetration.

ETA- Ron Jeremy with a .357 Sig would be the king of penetration.

clandestine · Jan 14, 2019

9mm kills brown bears just fine.

Mr.Blue · Jan 14, 2019

zoostation said:
As an aside, you know you're a dog lover when you watch a movie where a guy spends two hours killing about 600 people with up-close head shots in revenge for someone killing his dog, and the one part you always have to skip over is the dog part, because that's disturbing.

Lol!!! Hysterical!!! I do the same thing with John Wick.

zoostation · Jan 14, 2019

jcutonilli said:
I don't think you understood what I was saying. Your claim was that 9mm has not changed in 20 years. I believe the changes to HP ammo occurred earlier, around the time 40 SW came out. That was 30 years ago. That may explain why you don't think there were many changes in the past 20 years.

Ballistics are things like ballistic coefficient,velocity and energy. I would not classify expansion as part of ballistics, but it depends on definitions.

According to

https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/

Several 9mm tests expanded to over .7 in, while many 40 tests don't expand over .5 in.

How well a bullet expands is irrelevant if you don't hit the person. One study that looked at the effectiveness of various handgun calibers. It looked at the only thing that really matters, does it actually stop the person.

https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power

That data suggests caliber is not a big of a factor as many make it out to be.

Well we'll have to agree to disagree. While honestly if I'm looking for good scientific data concerning things as fickle as bullet expansion performance I'm not going to go to some place called lucky gunner dot com to get it, but irregardless, I think folks are free to look at the data out there and see the expansion performance of 9 mm vs 40 caliber rounds for themselves. And hopefully they will also think about things like the wound channel and the ability to penetrate barriers and the total surface area of a bullet, which is not accurately reflected by comparing small diameter differences between calibers and expansion diameters.

Name Taken · Jan 14, 2019

I think when you approach the caliber debate with an understanding that every handgun caliber is a trade off it opens up the conversation to which is "best".

The ability to control the round is important. Rather or not folks think "standards" are being lowered is irrelevant. If the officer on the street can not put several rounds on target because of recoil it is a problem.

Honestly if there was a "best" round out there it would have been found by now and departments/gun makers/ammo makers would be all in on it. The fact that it is a debate gives credit to there being no correct answer.

Logic would have you carry the caliber that puts the largest hole with the most energy into something. But folks departments aren't outfitting .44 Magnum rounds often. So when you start the "step down" game till you find "still good enough" I don't see a huge difference in .40 to a high quality 9mm round.

At the end of the day it simply doesn't matter as much as some think it does. Folk take several .40 hits and survive and folks die from single .22 round. Some folks fall off a curb and scrap their arm others die from head trauma.

babalou · Jan 14, 2019

lmfao

squaregrouper said:
For bears, penetration is key and .357 Sig is the king of penetration.

ETA- Ron Jeremy with a .357 Sig would be the king of penetration.

that sir was hilarious

Jonah Falcon snickers. Look him up

Eastern_Water_Moccasin · Jan 14, 2019

All I'm saying is even a good quality 9mm still is no .40 To me personally, the recoil is about the same and I shoot .40 pretty damn well.

JakeThePit · Jan 14, 2019

clandestine said:
9mm kills brown bears just fine.

It certainly does.

https://www.ammoland.com/2018/02/defense-against-bears-with-pistols-97-success-rate-37-incidents-by-caliber/

cstone · Jan 14, 2019

Isn't variety wonderful? I love having choices.

It has been my experience that most cops carry whatever their department/agency gives them. A few officers have any say in what caliber or type of ammunition that might be, but most don't. Hopefully those officers get enough ammunition and time to train and become proficient, but that is pretty iffy around the country. Also based on my experience, most cops don't really like to shoot that much. I base that on the number of officers who use their own time and money to practice. Many officers have far more issues keeping them from the range than sending them to the range. For many in law enforcement, mandatory requals are not just the minimum but also their maximum standard for maintaining proficiency. It may not be right, but it is the reality I've observed.

Be safe.

Eastern_Water_Moccasin · Jan 14, 2019

There's a reason why most cops in America carry Glock 22s

Squaregrouper · Jan 14, 2019

Eastern_Water_Moccasin said:
There's a reason why most cops in America carry Glock 22s

They can't afford USP's in .357 Sig?

Eastern_Water_Moccasin · Jan 14, 2019

People have been shot with 9mm didn't even know they were hit until the saw blood. .40 hits you you go down period.

ADR · Jan 14, 2019

Eastern_Water_Moccasin said:
People have been shot with 9mm didn't even know they were hit until the saw blood. .40 hits you you go down period.

Not even close to being factual but you keep believing the B/S. One of my coworkers hit a guy multiple times with 5.56 when he was with another agency. The guy eventually died but he stayed in the fight way longer than most would expect.

For the record I carry a Glock 33 off duty but it's not because I believe the .357 Sig is a magic round either. I like the round but have no problems carrying something in 9mm.

joppaj · Jan 14, 2019

Eastern_Water_Moccasin said:
There's a reason why most cops in America carry Glock 22s

Yes there is. It's a good gun, easy to teach and locals like to let the FBI do the research and then follow their lead. When the FBI goes to 9mm, locals will follow them there too.

I like my G22. I've carried one for 18+ years. It's concealed on my hip as I type this. It isn't a magic death stick.

cstone · Jan 14, 2019

Glock has a very impressive marketing and maintenance program aimed at law enforcement. Other companies do what they do, but I haven't seen anything like Glock when it comes to their sales and buy backs. If only their model numbering system made sense. ; )

Mr.Blue · Jan 14, 2019

Eastern_Water_Moccasin said:
People have been shot with 9mm didn't even know they were hit until the saw blood. .40 hits you you go down period.

No handgun caliber makes everyone go down all the time. People have been shot with .44 magnums and kept coming. Most of the times people go down when they are shot with handgun, it’s because of fear and the shock of being shot. Even a heart shot won’t kill a person immediately. My cousin shot a guy high on coke with 45+P right in the heart. The guy kept coming. Sure he bled out, but not after fighting more.

Unless you hit the brain stem, you are not guaranteed of a one stop shot.

Why COPS use .40: Q & A With a Cop

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