Large Shift in POI with .308 Ammo Change

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  • lazarus

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 23, 2015
    13,678
    I have a Remington 7400 30-06 with a leupold vari x-ii variable and leupold base/rings. I have been using the 165 gr AccuTip for a long time and since they are getting almost impossible to find I tried some Federal ammo (180gr) that I picked up cheap when a gun store was going out of business. We stop at a range on our way to the hunting cabin most years and check our bzo @ 50 yards. It was dead on with the Remington ammo. I wanted to see if the federal would shoot in the same hole. It did not. I don't remember exactly but It was probably ~ 2" off in elevation (low) and windage. Still not quite as extreme as your results but some weapons have a favorite load. The box test can tell you if the scope is ok but if you and or rifle can't shoot decent groups I'm not sure if it will tell you much.

    Your last is what I was worried about with my Sako as I’ve only been shooting about 3 1/2 years. But my AR-15 I built I was getting Sub-MOA groups with match ammo repeatably. But I still worried I was flinching or something. Nope. Not me, scope (glad it wasn’t the rifle. It’s a hand-me-down frommy wife’s uncle and it is a beauty!)
     

    erwos

    The Hebrew Hammer
    MDS Supporter
    Mar 25, 2009
    13,866
    Rockville, MD
    In order of likelihood:
    1. Scope mount loose / broken.
    2. Scope broken.
    3. Some sort of stock bedding issue.
     

    Pinecone

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 4, 2013
    28,175
    3 MOA with Federal Gold Medal Match is a HUGE red flag.

    SOMETHING is wrong.

    That ammo, in any reasonable rifle/scope, should be right around 1 MOA or less.
     

    Tracker

    Active Member
    Aug 21, 2011
    587
    Anne Arundel County
    Checked by hand, not torgue wrench.
    Savage 11/111 Trophy Hunter XP (replaced stock after the original one split and allowed the action to be loose)
    3-9x40mm Nikon® scope

    I have that rifle/scope combo. Nice action, don't care for the stock. What kind of stock did you replace yours with?
     

    Tungsten

    Ultimate Member
    Jan 1, 2012
    7,230
    Elkridge, Leftistan
    https://www.midwayusa.com/product/7...-_-misfire-_-confirm-_-20170810-_-ProductLink

    It is better than the original (which is pure crap), but not sure I am sold on it just yet. I have developed a loathing for any synthetic stock that does not have metal inserts for every screw/bolt. This one is good for the bolts that matter, but the screw behind the trigger guard is just a plastic hole which is amazingly easy to strip out (it doesn't appear to affect anything as the trigger guard is still very snug). It definitely absorbs recoil a hell of a lot better than the OEM.
     

    TheRealJimDavis

    Active Member
    Jan 28, 2013
    477
    The Burnie
    Ive had ammo for .308 change the POI by as much as about 5" in random direction. I think it was to about 10 or 7 oclock; I dont remember exact but remember about 5" at 100, which would be 10 at your 200.
     

    Tungsten

    Ultimate Member
    Jan 1, 2012
    7,230
    Elkridge, Leftistan
    Haven't been able to get back out on the range. I have new rings, torque wrench, etc.
    I'll definitely give an update once I get back on the range. I'll probably shoot this week.
     

    Tungsten

    Ultimate Member
    Jan 1, 2012
    7,230
    Elkridge, Leftistan
    BTW, I am using Vertically split QD Warne rings now. I had them laying around and figured I would try them before buying anything else. Have any of you had good/bad experiences with the vertical split rings as opposed to the more traditional top/bottom rings?
     

    BradMacc82

    Ultimate Member
    Industry Partner
    Aug 17, 2011
    26,177
    BTW, I am using Vertically split QD Warne rings now. I had them laying around and figured I would try them before buying anything else. Have any of you had good/bad experiences with the vertical split rings as opposed to the more traditional top/bottom rings?

    I don't use the QD model, but the vertical split Warnes have been on my scoped AR's and bolt actions for some years now. No issues with them, once properly torqued.

    Personally, on a bolt-action I don't have interest in QD rings. Once I have my optic set as I like it, it stays there - unless I HAVE TO remove the optic for whatever reason.
     

    DENWA

    Active Member
    May 5, 2008
    272
    Torque n Test!

    If in doubt Always:

    Check every screw down to and including the scope base itself. Also don't forget the action screws too.

    THEN SHOOT THE BOX.

    MOVE THE SCOPE ADJUSTMENTS

    4 inches right then 4 inches down

    Then 4 inches Left then 4 inches UP.

    If you aren't shooting PERFECT SQUARES. Then something wrong.

    ( Call your fliers of course and don't be afraid to repeat)
     

    Tungsten

    Ultimate Member
    Jan 1, 2012
    7,230
    Elkridge, Leftistan
    If in doubt Always:

    Check every screw down to and including the scope base itself. Also don't forget the action screws too.

    I knew I forgot something. Time to take the torque wrench to the action screws as well. Thanks.

    Personally, on a bolt-action I don't have interest in QD rings. Once I have my optic set as I like it, it stays there - unless I HAVE TO remove the optic for whatever reason.

    I agree. I only take a scope off if something is wrong. I don't even remember buying the QD rings, but I figure I may as well use them.

    On a related note, I really hate the turrets on this scope. I'm definitely going to get a different one sooner or later even if it is functioning correctly. Having to use a coin for turret adjustments is a poor design.
     

    Pinecone

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 4, 2013
    28,175
    Having to use a coin for turret adjustments is a poor design.

    Having to use a coin for turret adjustments is a standard feature of hunting scopes.

    You set the adjustments, and LEAVE THEM ALONE.
     

    Tungsten

    Ultimate Member
    Jan 1, 2012
    7,230
    Elkridge, Leftistan
    Got out to the range today. I think the turret adjustments are erratic:
    Boresighting at 100 yards required adjusting the scope 15" right and a couple feet up.
    Fine adjustments of 1/4" click at the end of the session resulted in a 1" shift

    But I did get a pretty good group to end the day (~3/4" @100 yds)
    Followed that up with 4 of the hunting rounds. Completely off paper (at least a foot shift)

    I ran out of time but next time I will shoot for consistent groups, and then shoot the Box just to confirm issues. I have another scope on the way.

    ....and coin adjustable turrets are still an abomination. Just make them finger adjustable with caps and it solves all issues.
     

    Biggfoot44

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 2, 2009
    32,881
    No , coin slots are the bee's knees . For normal usage you want your settings to stay put , not be subject to being bumped, or people playing with the knobs. When time comes to make adjustments, everybody has a coin, but not a hex wrench, or just right sized screwdriver.
     

    BradMacc82

    Ultimate Member
    Industry Partner
    Aug 17, 2011
    26,177
    What power was the scope set at? It's a 3-9 power Nikon right?

    The adjustments should only be accurate at the 9 power setting per Nikon. If you had it maxed out and the adjustments were off, then that scope is trashed.
     

    Tungsten

    Ultimate Member
    Jan 1, 2012
    7,230
    Elkridge, Leftistan
    What power was the scope set at? It's a 3-9 power Nikon right?

    The adjustments should only be accurate at the 9 power setting per Nikon. If you had it maxed out and the adjustments were off, then that scope is trashed.

    I had it at 9x.

    Vortex scope just arrived. I think the experiment with the old scope is over. I may put the old one on something else for S&G's (a .22) and then see how it behaves.
     

    BradMacc82

    Ultimate Member
    Industry Partner
    Aug 17, 2011
    26,177
    I had it at 9x.

    Vortex scope just arrived. I think the experiment with the old scope is over. I may put the old one on something else for S&G's (a .22) and then see how it behaves.

    I have a much more entertaining use for trashed optics, replicating (or at least attempting to) GSgt Hathcock's 'Cobra' shot.

    So far, no success with getting a round clean thru a modern scope - which isn't a surprise. But it's still fun to try. Tried it at 100, 200, and 300 yards so far with my .260 - fun times.

    100 yards -
    17835102_10212824614479584_4715211828386286344_o.jpg

    200 and 300 yards (Left - 200, Right - 300) -
    17814651_10212803640755254_517708752967649548_o.jpg

    I can promise you, it gets to be an obsession to drill a scope cleanly. I'm still annoyed my last 2 attempts were off. Hot day, wind at my face, didn't dial in the right amount of elevation for those shots. Still kicking myself about it.
     

    Tungsten

    Ultimate Member
    Jan 1, 2012
    7,230
    Elkridge, Leftistan
    Update. Using Vortex optics with Warne rings.
    Boresighted at home. At the range the target was placed at 50 yards.
    1st shot: bullseye
    2nd shot: on the circle
    3rd shot: on the diamond
    4th shot: waited 3 minutes for barrel to cool- just below bullseye

    I then waited about 5 minutes and proceeded to shoot 5-10 at a 30s-1min pace
    Aiming point for 5-10 was the right point of the diamond.
     

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