A warning on carrying spring-assisted knives.

smokey · Sep 26, 2011

Bigdtc said:
Good post.
Here is the caveat...
"in the handle of the knife".. my "spring-assisted" blade that I carry has no button on the handle = not a switchblade....

no, but it has a spring IN the handle... typically in the form of a L shaped bar spring that sits in a hole in the blade. Are you "applying pressure to a spring" when you're pressing the thumb stud or carson opener on a kershaw or SOG trident? Yeahhhhhhhh, ya kind've are. Not saying i agree or would interperet that as the law....just commenting on how vaguely it's written. It's why i asked if there was case law further defining a "switchblade" in md.

mward · Sep 26, 2011

smokey0118 said:
lets see....semi-useful post instead of speculating one way or the other....
http://www.lexisnexis.com/hottopics/mdcode/

It depends on the definition of a switchblade

So, if you're not allowed to carry a switchblade knife concealed, and the definition of "switchblade knife" is a knife or a penknife having a blade that opens automatically by hand pressure applied to a button, spring, or other device in the handle of the knife....thennnn i'd say there's a lot of interpretation as to whether or not a "spring assist" is a "switchblade". I'd like to see if there's caselaw that further defines "switchblade" in a more definate sense.

If your benchmade was one similar to this.... http://www.knifecenter.com/item/BM9052BK/benchmade-a-f-o-ii-auto ...then yes, you pressed a button to release the blade and i could see it interpreted as a "switchblade". If it was more like this barrage http://www.knifecenter.com/item/BM583BK/benchmade-583bk-barrage-axis-assisted-3-6-inch ...then are you realllllllllly "applying pressure to a spring"? Makes the brain tickle.

I do know that i'm just as fast opening my CRKT m16-13t with a carson-type flipper, or my SOG spec elite II by pulling back on the axis and flipping, or using the thumb stud as i am at opening my kershaws or even the front opening concord. However, this law may have you boned...depending on the interpretation of "switchblade"

...i read, but am not a lawyer so take this more as a question for the more knowledgeable folks than a proposed answer. I'm interested if basspro and most every other knife vender in maryland has been selling "illegal to conceal" knives all these years.

haoleboy said:
That sir is incorrect.

^^ It's kinda complicated, just like duty to retreat in your home...It depends how you interpret the law.

Bigdtc said:
Good post.
Here is the caveat...
"in the handle of the knife".. my "spring-assisted" blade that I carry has no button on the handle = not a switchblade....

One of the reason why it varies, and is hard to tell on a "I got my spring-assisted knife taken" thread....

BlackBart · Sep 26, 2011

mpdc4511 said:
No one enforces that so don't worry......just done act like a d ick when your wrong people are good at talking themselves into iron bracelets

Point is, it's the law :sad20:

and I have little to no doubt many if not most cops will enforce that law.

Fodder4Thought · Sep 26, 2011

BlackBart said:
Point is, it's the law and I have little to no doubt many if not most cops will enforce that law.

More to the point - all it takes is one.

Selective enforcement is bad news, but officer discretion is a good thing. I'm not being sarcastic here - both of those things are true, but I'm just not sure how to resolve the discrepancy.

StantonCree · Sep 26, 2011

BlackBart said:
Point is, it's the law and I have little to no doubt many if not most cops will not enforce that law.

Fixed it for you.

The only time I have personally seen that law (or variant of that law) enforced was actually in reference to a tazer. Some guy was driving down the road drunk in front of an officer and when cars passed him he stuck a tazer out the window and charged it pointed it at other cars as they passed.

BlackBart · Sep 26, 2011

mpdc4511 said:
Fixed it for you.

The only time I have personally seen that law (or variant of that law) enforced was actually in reference to a tazer. Some guy was driving down the road drunk in front of an officer and when cars passed him he stuck a tazer out the window and charged it pointed it at other cars as they passed.

Yeah, whatever and he who pushes his luck in DC is a fool and probably fined often. :rolleyes:

StantonCree · Sep 26, 2011

Are you kidding me? In this city half the officers don't do a thing regardless of the crime due to being burnt out at the courts inability ro prosecute and sentence anyone for crimes.

Redcobra · Sep 26, 2011

§ 4-101. Dangerous weapons

(a) Definitions. --

(1) In this section the following words have the meanings indicated.

(2) "Nunchaku" means a device constructed of two pieces of any substance, including wood, metal, or plastic, connected by any chain, rope, leather, or other flexible material not exceeding 24 inches in length.

(3) (i) "Pepper mace" means an aerosol propelled combination of highly disabling irritant pepper-based products.
(ii) "Pepper mace" is also known as oleoresin capsicum (o.c.) spray.

So you can't carry "Pepper Mace in Maryland? Doesn't some guy on this forum teach classes in it's use?
Not to hijack this thread but......

BlackBart · Sep 26, 2011

mpdc4511 said:
Are you kidding me? In this city half the officers don't do a thing regardless of the crime due to being burnt out at the courts inability ro prosecute and sentence anyone for crimes.

Good

smokey · Sep 26, 2011

Redcobra said:
§ 4-101. Dangerous weapons

(a) Definitions. --

(1) In this section the following words have the meanings indicated.
(2) "Nunchaku" means a device constructed of two pieces of any substance, including wood, metal, or plastic, connected by any chain, rope, leather, or other flexible material not exceeding 24 inches in length.

(3) (i) "Pepper mace" means an aerosol propelled combination of highly disabling irritant pepper-based products.
(ii) "Pepper mace" is also known as oleoresin capsicum (o.c.) spray.

So you can't carry "Pepper Mace in Maryland? Doesn't some guy on this forum teach classes in it's use?
Not to hijack this thread but......

you misread. this is the important part.

(2) A person may not wear or carry a dangerous weapon, chemical mace, pepper mace, or a tear gas device openly with the intent or purpose of injuring an individual in an unlawful manner.

you just highlighted the definition part clarifying what the words in the regulations below mean. Essentially you can use mace in DEFENSE...but if you use mace to assault someone in a bar fight while they're helpless, or mace someone and then rob them...it gives the prosecutor something else to charge them with. "dangerous weapons" above the snippet you posted is the title of the section, it doesn't mean the words below are considered defined as "dangerous weapons".

jaypark · Sep 27, 2011

All seemed well till he saw my Malco DK1 in my bucket.( Malco a manufacturer of HVAC tools,DK1 duct knife 1 6" double edged insulation knife) at which point he whacked out and I feared for my life much like the Ohio CCW encounter. He also felt the need to charge me with the steel bar used to knock out the concrete forms from riser shafts. He seemed convinced I was using drugs or up to no good instead of wetting a line after work and my tool bucket was his excuse to trash my truck. After going through all the trouble of cuffing me and putting me in his car he was taking me in for something. Disturb the doughnut your going to jail.

guess you were son... I dont even know what a malco dk1 is.... and I know guns so that must be a fricking pneumatic astro hammer from mars.... and if it is congrats but I wont arrest you

did you run your mouth? cmon you can tell me.... tell the bad cop.... 'youre just an ignorant redneck GED MF and you dont know what the USC says... you shouldnt exist'!!!!!

sound familiar... yeah I admit it ... I stole your playbook... just based on posts and guess what

experience

thanks for playing

marko12 · Sep 27, 2011

Buzzy this really pisses me off also. :mad54:

Keep us advised of the situation and proceedings. If you care to let us know what the Atty fees will be, perhaps some of us would consider sharing the cost. :thumbsup:

Lex Armarum · Sep 27, 2011

mward said:
^^ It's kinda complicated, just like duty to retreat in your home...It depends how you interpret the law.

One of the reason why it varies, and is hard to tell on a "I got my spring-assisted knife taken" thread....

There is no "duty to retreat" in your home. Period. It's that simple. People ALWAYS want to make that discussion complicated. It isn't. :sad20:

11b10 · Sep 27, 2011

marko12 said:
Buzzy this really pisses me off also.

Keep us advised of the situation and proceedings. If you care to let us know what the Atty fees will be, perhaps some of us would consider sharing the cost.

Ya Buzzy, keep us informed.. I really want to know why "I was questioned by some cops for a matter unrelated to the knife" Cops being plural, you had to do something of interest to have (cops) talking to you.. The un-related matter is going to be interesting, or you were a person of suspision asked some quetions and you ran your mouth. We'll see..

llkoolkeg · Sep 27, 2011

11b10 said:
Ya Buzzy, keep us informed.. I really want to know why "I was questioned by some cops for a matter unrelated to the knife"

Well, depending upon the neighborhood in Hagtown, blind speculation could include:

...Cops came to question me about a]the open-window + blasted boom box noise complaint, b]sitting on the stoop taking 2' bong hits of schwiggidy schwag, c]smacking around my psycho-beatch who was drunk again & mouthing off, d]sitting in the car w/ Jarrod sharing ciggies & shotgunning Busch Ice, or e]all of the above while sporting oversized and1 drawers & a pitstained wifebeater.

Just kidding; in the absence of knowledge, I sometimes let my imagination get the best of me.

Pushrod · Sep 27, 2011

jaypark said:
what a neophyte you are.... pathetic.... K to K has it over double D

Rusty sorry for the confusion but I'll forward some of the info here.... I'm sure case law is loaded up on this and we're missing a big piece of the puzzle... BTW if youre hoco based I'm sure you know Dombrowski, Leppert or some of the boys I trained up there.... FYI Dombrowski is NOT a robot... merely a cyborg that was created by USMC

Man, I would have hated to be a kid with a name like that, I would have been getting into fisticuffs constaintly with all the ribbing the other kids would have been dishing out.

booker · Sep 27, 2011

So much bad information and misunderstanding in this thread. The key factor of MD's knife laws is the individual's intent. The same knife can be considered legal or illegal, depending on the individual's intent. Scroll down to Maryland on this chart, and you'll see how it basically breaks down: http://thefiringline.com/library/blades/knifelaws.html

Pretty much anything can be openly carried, if there is no intent to use it as a weapon. However, the burden of proof lies with the carrier, not the State. Folders and fixed blades can be concealed, but again, there must be no intent to use them as a weapon and the individual bears the burden of proof. There is more leniency given to the carry of pocket knives than to fixed blades.

-----------

Regarding the particulars, we must look at the case-law...

One, other objects that can be used as weapons, like shovels, sharp pencils, bottles, etc. Some people make the absurd/sarcastic argument that these objects should be banned too, because they "can be weapons." The caselaw addresses this argument:

"For objects not legislatively classified as dangerous and deadly per se, the State must prove that the object is within the class described as any other dangerous or deadly weapon of any kind." (1992)
=> Assault with a pencil can be assault with a deadly weapon.

Two, regarding blade length:

"Where the only evidence presented was that the object appellant was carrying was a knife over three inches long, this evidence was insufficient to meet the statutory requirements of this section." (1992)
=> Swords and Ka-bars are not deadly weapons simply because they are >3" long. They may be for other reasons.

Three, regarding definition of a switchblade:

§ 4-105 "..a knife or a penknife having a blade that opens automatically by hand pressure applied to a button, spring, or other device in the handle of the knife, commonly called a switchblade knife or a switchblade penknife.."

=> The distinction made with "spring assisted folders" is that the blade must be first opened (however slightly) before there is actually pressure applied to the spring device in the handle. Typically, the first ~1/4" of opening does not engage the spring mechanism, and so the knife does not "open automatically by hand pressure applied to a..spring." It is a subtle distinction but the manufacturers of these knives intentionally designed them this way to comply with such laws.

Now, bringing that to court and making successful defense is another story, but that's the theory.

StantonCree · Sep 27, 2011

booker said:
So much bad information and misunderstanding in this thread.

The key factor of MD's knife laws is the individual's intent. The same knife can be considered legal or illegal, depending on the individual's intent.

Scroll down to Maryland on this chart, and you'll see how it basically breaks down: http://thefiringline.com/library/blades/knifelaws.html

Pretty much anything can be openly carried, if there is no intent to use it as a weapon. However, the burden of proof lies with the carrier, not the State.

Folders and fixed blades can be concealed, but again, there must be no intent to use them as a weapon and the individual bears the burden of proof. There is more leniency given to the carry of pocket knives than to fixed blades.

Regarding the particulars, we must look at the case-law...

One, other objects that can be used as weapons, like shovels, sharp pencils, bottles, etc. Some people make the absurd claim that these objects should be banned too, because they "can be weapons." The caselaw addresses this argument:

"For objects not legislatively classified as dangerous and deadly per se, the State must prove that the object is within the class described as any other dangerous or deadly weapon of any kind." (1992)

Two, regarding blade length:

"Where the only evidence presented was that the object appellant was carrying was a knife over three inches long, this evidence was insufficient to meet the statutory requirements of this section." (1992)

Regarding definition of a switchblade:

§ 4-105 "..a knife or a penknife having a blade that opens automatically by hand pressure applied to a button, spring, or other device in the handle of the knife, commonly called a switchblade knife or a switchblade penknife.."

The distinction made with "spring assisted folders" is that the blade must be first opened (however slightly) before there is actually pressure applied to the spring device in the handle. Typically, the first ~1/4" of opening does not engage the spring mechanism, and so the knife does not "open automatically by hand pressure applied to a..spring." It is a subtle distinction but the manufacturers of these knives intentionally designed them this way to comply with such laws.

Now, bringing that to court and making successful defense is another story, but that's the theory.

Completly agreed thats y everyone wants to know the unrelated matter

haoleboy · Sep 27, 2011

Pushrod said:
Man, I would have hated to be a kid with a name like that, I would have been getting into fisticuffs constaintly with all the ribbing the other kids would have been dishing out. Dombrowski

Careful. You may offend 2 of our moderators. :innocent0

haoleboy · Sep 27, 2011

smokey0118 said:
no, but it has a spring IN the handle... typically in the form of a L shaped bar spring that sits in a hole in the blade. Are you "applying pressure to a spring" when you're pressing the thumb stud or carson opener on a kershaw or SOG trident? Yeahhhhhhhh, ya kind've are. Not saying i agree or would interperet that as the law....just commenting on how vaguely it's written. It's why i asked if there was case law further defining a "switchblade" in md.

I don't have a kershaw or SOG Trident but i do have a SOG Flash II with thumb stud. When I press the thumb stud, actually I'm releasing, not applying pressure on the spring right?

A switchblade would have a button that is a "spring release?"

A warning on carrying spring-assisted knives.

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