Probably moving to Calvert

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  • gwchem

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 18, 2014
    3,434
    SoMD
    The issue with the newer systems is that there's a large cost to maintain them. Whether or not the seller installs, you'll be on the hook later.

    Please research all the options. Sorry if I came off as negative, but septic can be a big issue around here. I wish you luck getting it all sorted out.
     

    antco

    Ultimate Member
    Apr 28, 2010
    7,044
    Calvert, MD
    The issue with the newer systems is that there's a large cost to maintain them. Whether or not the seller installs, you'll be on the hook later.

    Please research all the options. Sorry if I came off as negative, but septic can be a big issue around here. I wish you luck getting it all sorted out.

    No need to apologize; I took no slight at all. But does a 15 year lifespan per drain field seem wrong? I've heard of people having drain fields that are 50+ years old. My wifes moms house is one such example.

    I sent my realtor a message to ask the sellers how often they were getting the system pumped out. They are the original/only occupants of this house and I'm wondering if they were the "no maintenance" type of owners that just ran the septic until failure each time with no pump outs in between, which put solids/trash into the laterals.
     

    gwchem

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 18, 2014
    3,434
    SoMD
    15 years seems way too short. There's either a drainage issue, or like you guess, very poor treatment by those owners. Is the drain field in a low lying area? Any other signs of water drainage being a problem?
     

    Capt Skup

    Ultimate Member
    Feb 29, 2012
    2,385
    Calvert County
    I have Brothers Johnson, a local company pump our septic every other year. We have three living in our house now, with a 2,000 gallon tank that may seem overkill but I figure it is insurance against problems. The price to have the tank pumped has gone up about 30% in the last several years. From what I gather, it is due to the cost the county is charging the septic companies to treat the waste. The cost is in the $375 range. I trust Brothers Johnson, they have always been professional and thorough. The service person has always answered all of my curious questions, too.
    Tips I have learned living with septic system in Calvert:
    Limit washing machine use to once a day
    Short showers
    NO grease, food waste down the sinks
    I treat the septic with a homebrew I learned from someone much more knowledgeable than I on septics. Once a month I pour down the drain a active yeast, sugar fed concoction that is suppose to help the critters eat up the solids down there. Disgusting but from what I learned it helps keeps things flowing. Also limit harsh chemical like bleach which kills off the good bacteria.
     

    traveller

    The one with two L
    Nov 26, 2010
    18,259
    variable
    That is a topic that I'm having the realtor put into the "fix it" contract; the county needs to identify where the next drain field can go. I don't want to move in and have a huge pile of Maryland ******** in 15 years because the first two drain field areas have already been eliminated.

    Typically, the septic easement is laid out for three drainfields (initial, R1, R2). The easement with the perc locations is recorded with the deed of the property. It may just be an unfounded rumor, but in the 'good old days', a couple of $100 bills could 'perc any lot in the county'. So the fact that there is a recorded easement is not a guarantee that someone actually hammered a pipe in the ground.

    If I was the seller of this property, I would just pay the cheapest guy with a backhoe I can find to put a new field into the R2 location, cash my settlement check and make sure that nobody knows my address in Florida.

    If I was the buyer of this property (and as such the one who bears the future financial risk from this septic system), I would want to get to the bottom of why they went through 2 fields in 29 years. What I would want is for a geotechnical engineer to look at the soil column in the new proposed location and give me an assessment whether this is a suitable location for a new drainfield. If not, I would want a recommendation for an engineered solution, be it a larger field or a mound. I would also look into replacing the tanks and the baffles with a new style aerobic system. Yes they can be stinky and there is a need for a maintenance contract, but from all I was told they put very little solids into the drainfield and are preferable for a marginal drainage situation.

    But that's just me.
     

    Inspector1489

    Ultimate Member
    May 27, 2016
    1,416
    FL panhandle
    Typically, the septic easement is laid out for three drainfields (initial, R1, R2). The easement with the perc locations is recorded with the deed of the property. It may just be an unfounded rumor, but in the 'good old days', a couple of $100 bills could 'perc any lot in the county'. So the fact that there is a recorded easement is not a guarantee that someone actually hammered a pipe in the ground.

    If I was the seller of this property, I would just pay the cheapest guy with a backhoe I can find to put a new field into the R2 location, cash my settlement check and make sure that nobody knows my address in Florida.

    If I was the buyer of this property (and as such the one who bears the future financial risk from this septic system), I would want to get to the bottom of why they went through 2 fields in 29 years. What I would want is for a geotechnical engineer to look at the soil column in the new proposed location and give me an assessment whether this is a suitable location for a new drainfield. If not, I would want a recommendation for an engineered solution, be it a larger field or a mound. I would also look into replacing the tanks and the baffles with a new style aerobic system. Yes they can be stinky and there is a need for a maintenance contract, but from all I was told they put very little solids into the drainfield and are preferable for a marginal drainage situation.

    But that's just me.

    Great advice for the OP :thumbsup::thumbsup:
     

    antco

    Ultimate Member
    Apr 28, 2010
    7,044
    Calvert, MD
    An update:
    The seller has pulled the permits and hired their contractor. They're waiting for the county sanitarian to come out and identify the position of the next drain field (#3). I've put into the contract that I want drain field #4 identified under todays regulations and designs. The seller is refusing. We're at a bit of a standoff.

    I have until tomorrow afternoon to respond. I'm not putting any more money into this purchase, through geotechnical engineers or anything else. I'm thinking we might exercise our escape clause and walk away.

    I'm hoping to be there when the sanitarian shows up to do his thing but I'm traveling to Atlanta on Tuesday and will probably miss him.
     

    Hit and Run

    Ultimate Member
    Oct 15, 2010
    1,435
    Prince Frederick
    An update:
    The seller has pulled the permits and hired their contractor. They're waiting for the county sanitarian to come out and identify the position of the next drain field (#3). I've put into the contract that I want drain field #4 identified under todays regulations and designs. The seller is refusing. We're at a bit of a standoff.

    I have until tomorrow afternoon to respond. I'm not putting any more money into this purchase, through geotechnical engineers or anything else. I'm thinking we might exercise our escape clause and walk away.

    I'm hoping to be there when the sanitarian shows up to do his thing but I'm traveling to Atlanta on Tuesday and will probably miss him.
    Time to take any emotions out of equation.

    Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk
     

    traveller

    The one with two L
    Nov 26, 2010
    18,259
    variable
    Never fall in love with a piece of dirt.

    The sanitarian may not even be able to identify another location for a drain field without digging new perc holes.
     

    antco

    Ultimate Member
    Apr 28, 2010
    7,044
    Calvert, MD
    So, riddle me this. If drain field #1 failed ~15 years ago, why can't someone dig out those trenches and refill with new gravel, sand, and drain pipe? That dirt has had ~15 years to "go back to nature", for lack of a better description.

    Just curious for educations sake.
     

    gwchem

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 18, 2014
    3,434
    SoMD
    So, riddle me this. If drain field #1 failed ~15 years ago, why can't someone dig out those trenches and refill with new gravel, sand, and drain pipe? That dirt has had ~15 years to "go back to nature", for lack of a better description.

    Just curious for educations sake.

    Cause the assumption is that the drain paths out of that field may have also collapsed and failed. The water has to go somewhere, and we have a lot of clay here that holds water.

    May also have failed because the water table moved up due to some outside influence like construction nearby. That's why I asked if the lot had drainage issues elsewhere.
     

    traveller

    The one with two L
    Nov 26, 2010
    18,259
    variable
    So, riddle me this. If drain field #1 failed ~15 years ago, why can't someone dig out those trenches and refill with new gravel, sand, and drain pipe? That dirt has had ~15 years to "go back to nature", for lack of a better description.

    Just curious for educations sake.

    You would think that that should work. The cleaning of the effluent is done by a 'biofilm' of bugs on the gravel/sand surrounding the trench. You would think that 15 years without any more shit being pumped in would be enough for whatever is there to break down.
    I dont believe you are allowed to go back to an old drainfield.
     

    antco

    Ultimate Member
    Apr 28, 2010
    7,044
    Calvert, MD
    You would think that that should work. The cleaning of the effluent is done by a 'biofilm' of bugs on the gravel/sand surrounding the trench. You would think that 15 years without any more shit being pumped in would be enough for whatever is there to break down.
    I dont believe you are allowed to go back to an old drainfield.

    Cause the assumption is that the drain paths out of that field may have also collapsed and failed. The water has to go somewhere, and we have a lot of clay here that holds water.

    May also have failed because the water table moved up due to some outside influence like construction nearby. That's why I asked if the lot had drainage issues elsewhere.

    No drainage issues that I'm aware of, if I haven't answered that already. The yard has a gradual grade over all of it, which increases its rate of drop once into the tree line. There was a nice little 2-3' wide stream cruising down in the low area of the woods in the back yard when it was raining all day last Thursday 11/15. I suspect that stream goes away within 24 hours of the end of the rain event.
     

    gwchem

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 18, 2014
    3,434
    SoMD
    Maybe the old owners were just full of shit...

    Lol, sorry man. I hope it works out for you. Have you looked into further south or do you need DC access? St. Mary's is nice too.
     

    antco

    Ultimate Member
    Apr 28, 2010
    7,044
    Calvert, MD
    Would prefer to keep DC access. Beltsville might be a predominate destination in a couple of years. I’m very independent in my current position but that’s likely not a long term position as I continue promoting through the organization.

    Latest update regarding the contract and addendums and attachments and compromises: I had my realtor draft a response this morning that simply put says that I’m not doing anything until the county comes out and does their inspections and issues their directives. If the seller doesn’t like this response, they can feel free to give back my earnest money and go find themselves another buyer. I’m fully underwritten through a great MDS IP lender, and just waiting for this house to get up to snuff and my comfort level to go up some more.

    I have three days to make a move following the written directives from the county sanitarian.

    If I had to take a temperature reading, I’m maybe 20% likely to buy the house at this time.

    You guys have any recommendations for geotechnical engineers or awesome septic guys? Anyone ever heard of Eddie Guy septic contractor? I want to understand more about this dirt its perc capabilities or short comings.
     

    antco

    Ultimate Member
    Apr 28, 2010
    7,044
    Calvert, MD
    The latest and greatest news is that a bunch of people from the county came out on Wednesday, along with the contractor hired by the seller. They dug a bunch of trenches and holes all over the back yard (water well is in the front) and the Sanitarian decided that she didn't like what she was seeing in these holes. So, the verbal directive at this time (nothing in writing yet) is that an Orenco AX-RT system needs to be installed. Here is a document describing that- https://odl.orenco.com/documents/ABR-ATX-AXRT-1.pdf

    These Orenco things are in use all over PA, NC, CA, and gaining popularity in MD. PA.gov and CA.gov have some very in depth research papers on these systems, with good results and outcomes. There are no blowers or augers, and supposedly no smells. The monthly electric bill is projected to be $3-4, a yearly $200 inspection is required, and the easily-replaced pump has an expected lifespan of 20 years. It looks like it's $5k to buy an entire new Orenco package unit, so replacement is comparable to installing a new drain field in the future if this house stayed with a standard septic system.

    A property survey was done on Friday at the demand of the Sanitarian to determine the north property boundary so she can finish her drawing.

    As for the house purchase, the sellers did sign my last contract amendment that stated the buyers are not making any decisions or taking any actions on anything until three days after the county has issued their written directives. I still have an active clause in the contract that allows me to walk away for any reason based on "dissatisfaction". It's a very broad clause that leaves me plenty of room to walk away with my earnest money for basically any reason.

    The loan is fully funded and done, and just waiting on a legal and operating septic system.

    I plan to reach out to the Maryland Orenco distributor on Monday and get a list of their biggest installers. I'll then call and bug the shit out of them with a thousand questions, and probably attempt to tag along on any scheduled yearly inspections to see these units in person and in operation. I'm familiar and comfortable with the technology as my industry has been using it since ~2006 to treat our washrack wastewater before discharging to the sewer system. It's a proven technology that works as long as "trash" isn't introduced into it, and as long as you don't go over its designed daily flow capabilities.

    Lastly, we wait to find out if the County can fully stamp this plan so the contractor can move forward with installation, or if it needs to go to Annapolis MDE for final approval. Getting the Md Dept of Environment involved could add two months onto this process, according to the Sanitarian.
     

    slsc98

    Ultimate Member
    May 24, 2012
    6,746
    Escaped MD-stan to WNC Smokies
    The latest and greatest news ...

    antco, I probably speak for more than myself here when I say the only thing that exceeds my appreciation for your providing all this follow-up information are: a) my relief y’all discovered these issues BEFORE any deed transferred; AND, b) our wishes for you and the sellers to reach a successful “Win/Win” and many decades of enjoyment in your new home(s).

    (Where we’re at now, the higher one goes up the mountains, etc. to build, the more challenging installing a septic system that passes muster with the state can be — the info you provide above is likely gonna help others, way beyond the members of this thread! :thumbsup:

    Best o’ Success to y’all ! :party29:
     

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