Need some help from the mds braintrust on a Garand

JMintzer · Nov 15, 2016

Pinecone said:
As I understand it, there are ones that were purchased by SK and some that were loaned.

The ones that were loaned could be brought back by the US Army and transferred to CMP. The others would have to be imported.

The problem is, the SK do not want to figure out which are which. And legally, they cannot just say XXXXX are US owned, take any XXXXX of the rifles.

This is correct. No one is sure which are which...

Blacksmith101 · Nov 16, 2016

Along with everything else pointed out in this thread with any Garand with unknown provenance there is always the possibility of a welded receiver which would greatly alter the value. To determine if that is the case you need to remove the parts and have an experienced eye. All of this is why buying with the CMP paperwork carries a premium.

pen · Dec 3, 2016

JMintzer said:
The CMP CEO has stated that since they don't know who owns what, they will not be coming back thru the lend/lease program, and they are not importers (like BlueSky).

A private importer will handle that..., selling them to dealers, or to the public, much like they do with the Mosins etc...

Is this the new guy or Orest? These are still the property of the US Government. I am surprised he wasn't directed to the Department of the Army Historical Summary, FY 1969.

On page 123 of Chapter XI., under “Military Assistance and Foreign Liaison”, it succinctly stipulates that they were loaned to Korea. For your perusal.

http://www.history.army.mil/books/DA...69/chXI.htm#n1

This was a grant aid program, which meant that they were not “sold” to the Koreans, and Korea does not own them. They were loaned, and remain to this day the property of the US government, specifically the US Army, who was the “logistic implementer” for the MAP program

During the late 50’s, 60’s and 70’s we had several MAP recipient countries and Korea was one of the largest. MAP programs were phased down in the 70’s with the passage of the Arms Export Control Act (AECA) in 1978 and the creation of the Foreign Military Sales (FMS) program.

When a few made it out surreptitiously, Uncle Sam stepped in and told both Korea and the importers, IIRC, to cease and desist as they were illegally re-importing and selling US property. Hard to say how many made it through with the Blue Sky/Arlington VA stamped barrels.

The South Korean Garand’s and Carbines are guns they don't own and the arrangement was made very clear that when they are done with them they are to be returned. The South Koreans are trying to sell guns they don't own and never paid for.

BuildnBurn · Dec 4, 2016

I remember looking at the surplus rifles at Woolworths back in the 80's. Most were beat to crap, I would guess needing wood and barrel replacement to be a rifle that you would be proud to own (or even get to shoot well) GI surplus parts were a lot cheaper and easier to come by back then too.
IIRC the import Garands went for around $200 and would have to put the same in again to have a nice rifle, when for $169 the DCM would deliver one to your door. The only catch was it was a 13 month wait after the paperwork was submitted.

If the SK Garand's are imported I don't think they will be selling for $200 and if they as rough as everyone on the internet is saying, you won't be able to make a nice shooter out of them for what Garand's are going for now.

Sorry OP for going off topic a bit

Pinecone · Dec 4, 2016

pen said:
Is this the new guy or Orest? These are still the property of the US Government. I am surprised he wasn't directed to the Department of the Army Historical Summary, FY 1969.

On page 123 of Chapter XI., under “Military Assistance and Foreign Liaison”, it succinctly stipulates that they were loaned to Korea. For your perusal.

http://www.history.army.mil/books/DA...69/chXI.htm#n1

This was a grant aid program, which meant that they were not “sold” to the Koreans, and Korea does not own them. They were loaned, and remain to this day the property of the US government, specifically the US Army, who was the “logistic implementer” for the MAP program

During the late 50’s, 60’s and 70’s we had several MAP recipient countries and Korea was one of the largest. MAP programs were phased down in the 70’s with the passage of the Arms Export Control Act (AECA) in 1978 and the creation of the Foreign Military Sales (FMS) program.

When a few made it out surreptitiously, Uncle Sam stepped in and told both Korea and the importers, IIRC, to cease and desist as they were illegally re-importing and selling US property. Hard to say how many made it through with the Blue Sky/Arlington VA stamped barrels.

The South Korean Garand’s and Carbines are guns they don't own and the arrangement was made very clear that when they are done with them they are to be returned. The South Koreans are trying to sell guns they don't own and never paid for.

The problem is, South Korea has both lend-lease Garands and Carbine, and ones that they purchased.

Only the lend-lease rifles can return to the US intact and be sold through CMP. And no one is willing to try to figure out which exact rifles are lend-lease and which are not. And legally, they can't just say there are XXXX lend-lease rifles, so we will take XXXX rifles. They have to be the exact serial numbers that are lend-lease.

The non-len-dlease ones cannot be imported, until a certain EO is rescinded, that prohibits the importation of US military firearms.

pen · Dec 4, 2016

Pinecone said:
The problem is, South Korea has both lend-lease Garands and Carbine, and ones that they purchased.

Only the lend-lease rifles can return to the US intact and be sold through CMP. And no one is willing to try to figure out which exact rifles are lend-lease and which are not. And legally, they can't just say there are XXXX lend-lease rifles, so we will take XXXX rifles. They have to be the exact serial numbers that are lend-lease.

The non-len-dlease ones cannot be imported, until a certain EO is rescinded, that prohibits the importation of US military firearms.

That's the first I have heard of that. Why would they purchase rifles when Big Army was supplying them for free? I would think if this was the case, and with all the collectors world round (outside of the US) they would certainly sell them (the ones they allegedly owned).

I have no doubt that the EO will be reversed in due course.

JMintzer · Dec 4, 2016

pen said:
Is this the new guy or Orest? These are still the property of the US Government. I am surprised he wasn't directed to the Department of the Army Historical Summary, FY 1969.

On page 123 of Chapter XI., under “Military Assistance and Foreign Liaison”, it succinctly stipulates that they were loaned to Korea. For your perusal.

http://www.history.army.mil/books/DA...69/chXI.htm#n1

This was a grant aid program, which meant that they were not “sold” to the Koreans, and Korea does not own them. They were loaned, and remain to this day the property of the US government, specifically the US Army, who was the “logistic implementer” for the MAP program

During the late 50’s, 60’s and 70’s we had several MAP recipient countries and Korea was one of the largest. MAP programs were phased down in the 70’s with the passage of the Arms Export Control Act (AECA) in 1978 and the creation of the Foreign Military Sales (FMS) program.

When a few made it out surreptitiously, Uncle Sam stepped in and told both Korea and the importers, IIRC, to cease and desist as they were illegally re-importing and selling US property. Hard to say how many made it through with the Blue Sky/Arlington VA stamped barrels.

The South Korean Garand’s and Carbines are guns they don't own and the arrangement was made very clear that when they are done with them they are to be returned. The South Koreans are trying to sell guns they don't own and never paid for.

Well, I'm sure you know more than Orest and the rest of the folks @ the CMP...

bpm32 · Dec 4, 2016

JMintzer said:
Well, I'm sure you know more than Orest and the rest of the folks @ the CMP...

At one of the AMCs Mark Johnson told us the exact same thing--that the South Koreans owned none of the rifles and the Blue Sky imports were illegal.

Pinecone · Dec 5, 2016

pen said:
That's the first I have heard of that. Why would they purchase rifles when Big Army was supplying them for free? I would think if this was the case, and with all the collectors world round (outside of the US) they would certainly sell them (the ones they allegedly owned).

I have no doubt that the EO will be reversed in due course.

We gave them some, but they wanted more, I guess.

And they would be happy to sell them, but again, they need to figure out which ones are purchased, and only sell those.

But I suspect, if they asked, there are a number of people who would volunteer to go through the various paperwork and sort the rifles. Maybe for a pick or two "of the litter."

trailtoy · Dec 11, 2016

Related question, sort of. Are there still 'U.S. Property' Garands out there waiting to come home? It seems the CMP is a little short, at least on-line. Are they expecting more or are near the end?

Orlando · Dec 12, 2016

There are some but doesnt mean they will ever get returned in our lifetime.
CMP is very short, the director of operations estimated Garands would be gone sometime in 2017 unless more are returned

Drmsparks · Dec 12, 2016

the philippines and turkey as well as south korea have map rifles outstanding that could possibly be returned.

Threeband · Dec 12, 2016

I think Iran has a lot of them.

Maybe if we send them a planeload of unmarked Swiss Francs we can get them back.

Need some help from the mds braintrust on a Garand

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