Restoring an 1884 Springfield Trapdoor - Hooligan Style...

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  • teratos

    My hair is amazing
    MDS Supporter
    Patriot Picket
    Jan 22, 2009
    59,775
    Bel Air
    Suggestions on a COTS BP cartridge? Or a smokeless equivalent?

    I have some Horndadys right now I think made for Marlin levers, that I do NOT think I’ll be firing out of the 1873.

    You may already know this but REALLY bad idea. LOL.
     

    j8064

    Garrett Co Hooligan #1
    Feb 23, 2008
    11,635
    Deep Creek
    Suggestions on a COTS BP cartridge? Or a smokeless equivalent?

    I have some Horndadys right now I think made for Marlin levers, that I do NOT think I’ll be firing out of the 1873.

    You may already know this but REALLY bad idea. LOL.

    Teratos nailed it. Please DO NOT fire commercial ammo built for modern rifles in vintage firearms! The steel technology of today is far different than that of 100+ years ago.

    Personally I load my own BP ammo for these relics. If you are an experienced reloader - it's "different" than smokeless powder, but not hard to learn to do. There are reloading recipes using smokeless powder out there to mimic low pressure BP rounds. A big concern is, with the size of 45-70 cases, a mistake like double charging a case with smokeless powder could cost you your rifle - and maybe your face.

    Again, these rifles were built to shoot period correct BP ammo. I'll stay true to that...

    :thumbsup:
     

    swamplynx

    Active Member
    MDS Supporter
    Jul 28, 2014
    678
    DC
    Teratos nailed it. Please DO NOT fire commercial ammo built for modern rifles in vintage firearms! The steel technology of today is far different than that of 100+ years ago.

    Personally I load my own BP ammo for these relics. If you are an experienced reloader - it's "different" than smokeless powder, but not hard to learn to do. There are reloading recipes using smokeless powder out there to mimic low pressure BP rounds. A big concern is, with the size of 45-70 cases, a mistake like double charging a case with smokeless powder could cost you your rifle - and maybe your face.

    Again, these rifles were built to shoot period correct BP ammo. I'll stay true to that...

    :thumbsup:

    So I need to start stuffing my own brass? Not that I need to shoot this gun, but I don’t like anything in my toolbox getting rusty. I was looking for a new hobby anyway... Can’t be any more expensive than the boat!

    There really aren’t any commercial vendors out there that make these rounds either in classic BP or a smokeless mix? Seems like a pretty sizable market based on this thread alone.
     

    Melnic

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 27, 2012
    15,282
    HoCo
    If you buy any , keep the shot cases!

    Isn’t rounds that are all lead 45-70 Government safe to shoot?

    I honk that is what I got at the MACA show couple years ago


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     

    Bolts Rock

    Living in Free America!
    Apr 8, 2012
    6,123
    Northern Alabama
    Some general comments.

    Watch this first: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2SyN6m39x4

    From experience a rolling boil for 5-10 minutes in distilled water works. Boiling tank/pot must be clean, degreased, made of black iron or stainless. Long parts can be swapped end for end. Sources for soft enough wire brushes are Brownells, Gordon Brush (micro scratch brushes) and Dremel wire brushes (use by hand NOT in the Dremel for tight spots). Wire diameter is the important part, .001" to .003". You can also use fully degreased 0000 steelwool. Follow with a heavy application of BC Barricade or Rig oil.

    Cleaning the wood a little further use Murphy's Oil Soap and warm water on a white Scotch Brite pad. Lots of grunge will come off. Wipe and let dry. Tung Oil.


    Ammo-
    There are commercial loadings that say "Trapdoor Safe" by a a lot of makers but I would not shoot most of them in an original. After a very deep inspection and blessing by a gunsmith I might risk HSM Cowboy or Buffalo Arms (NOT, NOT, NOT Buffalo Bore). Loading manuals also have Trapdoor load data but again I would not use most of it in an original except Trail Boss loads with lead bullets (NOTE- in the .45-70 case you can double load Trail Boss so be careful). The main use of the commercial loads and reloading data that are Trapdoor safe are other period originals like the Sharps, High Walls, Rolling Blocks and pre-1894 lever guns and of course the reproductions of them, also the repro Trapdoors made with modern steel.

    A smokeless load that mimics the original BP load will have more and sharper recoil than a real BP load.

    My BP load-
    62.9gr by weight FFg Schuetzen powder, trickled down a 36" drop tube, .030" thick card wad, 1/8" compression, 400gr 1:20 alloy sized to .460" bullet with SPG Tropic lube, very light crimp (just enough to remove the slight bell at the mouth and start in into the crimp groove). All my brass is Starline and I use Federal primers.
     

    BeoBill

    Crank in the Third Row
    MDS Supporter
    Oct 3, 2013
    27,064
    南馬里蘭州鮑伊
    Some general comments.

    ========= 8< -------------------

    A smokeless load that mimics the original BP load will have more and sharper recoil than a real BP load.

    This is absolutely correct. It's not necessarily the overall pressure that will kill your weapon; it's the near vertical pressure spike that destroys the chamber. And your body bits.
     

    j8064

    Garrett Co Hooligan #1
    Feb 23, 2008
    11,635
    Deep Creek
    This is absolutely correct. It's not necessarily the overall pressure that will kill your weapon; it's the near vertical pressure spike that destroys the chamber. And your body bits.

    Bolts Rock & BeoBill are correct. And all the more reason to stick with period correct BP loads for 19th century firearms built for black powder.

    I'll shoot smokeless 45-70 rounds in my Pedersoli Sharps replica only because I know the rifle can handle the pressure spikes. With smokeless loads the rifle can and will kick like a mule. Frankly, shooting BP loads in it is a lot more fun... ;)

    swamplynx, as 4570inMD points out BACO sells BP ammo. I'm sure there are other sources. I'd explore those options. If you relegate your rifle to being a Safe Queen you'll miss out on a lot of fun...

    :)
     

    swamplynx

    Active Member
    MDS Supporter
    Jul 28, 2014
    678
    DC
    swamplynx, as 4570inMD points out BACO sells BP ammo. I'm sure there are other sources. I'd explore those options. If you relegate your rifle to being a Safe Queen you'll miss out on a lot of fun...

    :)

    Thanks all. Going to order some BP rounds from Buffalo and hopefully convince them to ship to DC or will send them to the in-laws. No safe queens in this house. You have to earn your keep.
     

    j8064

    Garrett Co Hooligan #1
    Feb 23, 2008
    11,635
    Deep Creek
    Thanks all. Going to order some BP rounds from Buffalo and hopefully convince them to ship to DC or will send them to the in-laws. No safe queens in this house. You have to earn your keep.

    That's good news. You definitely have some fun ahead.

    All of us here like to see pics of old firearms and their owners enjoying shooting them. Please feel free to add some pics of yours here or start a thread on your trapdoor. :D

    In the meantime, 4570 and I had ours out to the range yesterday to test some BP loads. https://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=240695

    And we're ready to go back and do it again tomorrow...

    :innocent0
     

    4570inMD

    Western MD Hooligan #007
    Jan 26, 2011
    1,337
    West Virginia
    Today's Trapdoor 45-70 powder tree was going well and confirmed 62.5g Swiss 1-1/2 Fg is my rifle's sweet spot.

    j8064 decided to try his Trapdoor 500g bullet powder-load on one of my 100 yard 6" targets. It appears that he has found the sweet spot for that bullet:

    j8064 24dec19 Trapdoor 500g 100yds.jpg

    Nice shot with iron sights into the sun.
     

    4570inMD

    Western MD Hooligan #007
    Jan 26, 2011
    1,337
    West Virginia
    Today, 29dec19, j8064 was back with his favorite load in his original 1892 Trapdoor. I am sure that he will share details. He is liking the results:

    Trapdoor 405-63 @ 50yds 0.968MOA 29dec19.jpg
     

    Melnic

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 27, 2012
    15,282
    HoCo
    So,
    Question on the trapdoor shooting. I notice you guys are shooting with the rear sight sticking up.
    Are you raising up and using the peep hole?
    I thought I recall trying this and that with the peep hole, the POI was even higher than with the sight down.
    I was having to post 2 targets and aim at the lower but hit the upper.
     

    4570inMD

    Western MD Hooligan #007
    Jan 26, 2011
    1,337
    West Virginia
    So,
    Question on the trapdoor shooting. I notice you guys are shooting with the rear sight sticking up.
    Are you raising up and using the peep hole?
    I thought I recall trying this and that with the peep hole, the POI was even higher than with the sight down.
    I was having to post 2 targets and aim at the lower but hit the upper.

    Yes - raising up and using the peep hole; however, both Hooligan Trapdoors have replacement front sight inserts, so that we no longer need to use your two target system at 100 yards.

    I am using an insert that is 0.401" tall versus the original 0.272". It changes POI about 17" at 100 yds since the sight radius is 27".
     

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