Fear the Man With One Pistol...

For he knows how to use it... isn't that how the old adage goes?

Alright well today I went to the NRA range with my dad and my brother. My brother hasn't shot any firearms for about 5 years since I took him to the range with me when I was a member at the IWLA Rockville Chapter. Here was the mini arsenal we brought:

S&W Mod. 19 (dad's)
SIG P226 (9x19mm, W. German - dad's)
Colt Combat Commander (.45 ACP - mine)
Glock 19 (mine)
My SBR AR-15 and YHM QD Phantom 7.62

So I ran my brother through the handling of each gun and we started shooting. My brother started posting some pretty good groups! He probably got about 3" at 7 yards, centered on the red center of the half-size B27 target we were shooting. The first shot he fired was SA, the rest DA, pretty impressive for someone who doesn't shoot often at all. He did pretty well with the SIG and decently with my 1911. My dad was doing ok, but I was very impressed with my little brother.

Then we got to the Glock and I threw the target out to 15 yards, and set up some rapid fire strings with 2 topped off G17 mags that had old carry ammo I wanted to dispose of. I blasted a mag as fast as I could get my sight picture back after recoil, reloaded and blasted another mag. Saw my group was stringing low left. I knew I was either jerking or squeezing too hard... I wanted to blame it on the brand new Mechanix gloves (for handling the hot suppressor) I was testing out... so I did lol. But I also knew and explained I hadn't shot paper for a long time. I haven't shot at a paper target like that for probably 6 months or more... Now I shoot pistols and shotguns 5 days a week, but normally for function testing and I'm watching the gun cycle typically, shooting one handed, rapidly, not caring about the marksmanship fundamentals at all... Now I do target some guns for accuracy but I always take my time on that and I have no problems.

Now back to the range trip today, my brother picked up the Glock and posted a pretty bad group so I didn't feel too bad. I took it as a chance to congratulate him on his good groups earlier, and demonstrate that shooting pistols with different grips/controls is difficult to do well consistently. I have long been an advocate of the idea that you can only really shoot one pistol platform well, simply because once you get used to one manual of arms/ergonomics/controls, it's hard to re-train to another pistol and be just as good. Now at my best I could post 4-5" groups at 15 yards as fast as I could shoot (never used a shot timer, but I was decently quick I think). I'm obviously out of practice, and will slow it down some when I start hitting the range more.

So back to the original title of the thread.... how many of you guys consider yourselves truly proficient shooters, and to what degree? Any Grand Master USPSA/Master IDPA shooters here? Champion bullseye target shooters? Practical/LE/Military pistol shooters? Are you good with most pistols and only excellent with one? Or is it possible to be a true pistoleer in every sense of the word with several pistols of varying designs/ergonomics?

Sorry for the rambling thread... just putting a few points out there to ponder.

I'm just a casual shooter (although I do burn thru my fair share of ammo), but given a brief amount of time to get familiar with a particular firearm - I tend to surprise a good deal of people.

Best shooting I do is with a Browning Hi-Power, but I feel good about my proficiency with everything else I've shot - S&W .500 aside, I was shooting that with a broken thumb, and it showed.

I shoot a single-action revolver, double-action revolvers, 1911s, and a CZ-75 about the same with a two hand grip. One handed? I shoot the single actions better than the double actions. Especially left handed. It takes me about 10 rounds to acclimate to a different pistol.

Some people seem to be natural born shooters.

smores said:

So back to the original title of the thread.... how many of you guys consider yourselves truly proficient shooters, and to what degree? Any Grand Master USPSA/Master IDPA shooters here? Champion bullseye target shooters? Practical/LE/Military pistol shooters? Are you good with most pistols and only excellent with one? Or is it possible to be a true pistoleer in every sense of the word with several pistols of varying designs/ergonomics?

Sorry for the rambling thread... just putting a few points out there to ponder.

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I don't know...I consider myself proficient with the guns I shoot most. I've probably put close to 12k rds through my G19 and about 1.5k through my G21, thousands and thousands of rounds through my .22 pistol. I consider myself proficient. To be honest, I don't know what "Good" means. To some, it would mean headshots at 25 yards. To others, it would be good weapon manipulation such as reloads and malfunction drills. I have had only brief instruction from a professional, the rest has just been practicing on my own.

I do find, though, that I shoot much better with weapons I shoot more often. That shouldn't be a surprise though. I am not very good at shooting revolvers, for instance, because I don't shoot them often.

But to answer your question, yes, I think there can be such a thing as a "pistoleer" in every sense of the word. It would just require a combination of natural talent, large amounts of practice, and an interest. I'm not really a believer in the idea that you should only own/use one platform of pistol to become proficient. I'm certain there are people out there that can pick up a revolver, glock, and 1911 and shoot them all amazingly, even under extreme stress. Probably not many, though.

Hickock45.. at youtube seems to fit the category

SCARCQB said:

Hickock45.. at youtube seems to fit the category

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Accuracy wise, definitely. He doesn't do much weapon manipulation but he's by far my favorite youtuber.

I usually best most people at the shooting range when I go. If I don't, I try to pick their brain on how to improve my shooting(got some excellent advice for shooting slowfire bullseye and improving my stance and finding my natural point of aim by striking up a range conversation with someone who knew what they were doing). In IDPA, I've been middle of the pack in the few I've shot. I'm decent at shotgunning and typically get 20 or so broken of 25, but that's waaaaay down the list in gunning i've got practice at.

Basically, I'm going for a broad brush approach. I want to be as good as I can with as many different types of firearms/shooting as possible. I feel I'd be wasting my time if I only specialized in one type. It boils down to a quote I heard in the education field...

"education is learning more and more about less and less until you know absolutely everything about nothing"

I'm fairly good at being competitive when I shoot just about anything, but will lose to experienced shooters in that discipline. I'm not happy at my proficiency level and never will be. My skill set is probably strongest with handguns. Within the handgun umbrella, it's strongest with aimed shots at a medium pace(because that's easiest to practice at your typical shooting range). My weakest area is long distance eshell stuff. I don't even own a precision bolt gun yet(I've been broke). In my mind, being proficient with a handgun is a more immediately useful skill than precision long gunning(because I'm more likely to use a handgun under stress at close range in an emergency than a bolt gun at a long range with out current laws/society) so that's where my attention has gone(both to training and collection).

Been in the army for a few years, I'm average with the Beretta 92F, but I'm really good with the Sig 228, I guess the Beretta is too big for my hands.

Rockerspsl said:

Been in the army for a few years, I'm average with the Beretta 92F, but I'm really good with the Sig 228, I guess the Beretta is too big for my hands.

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this should make you feel better....

AliasNeo07 said:

But to answer your question, yes, I think there can be such a thing as a "pistoleer" in every sense of the word. It would just require a combination of natural talent, large amounts of practice, and an interest. I'm not really a believer in the idea that you should only own/use one platform of pistol to become proficient. I'm certain there are people out there that can pick up a revolver, glock, and 1911 and shoot them all amazingly, even under extreme stress. Probably not many, though.

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I see what you mean. For a while when I was carrying every day, when I went to the range I would practice holster draws from concealment, mozambique drills, etc. When I started pistol shooting (and when I get any new pistol) I focused on shooting for accuracy at different distances, then building speed. The weapons handling comes from try fire practice and handling it over time. As a gunsmith I handle up to a dozen or more firearms a day, so I've become very good at manipulating various slides, safeties, trigger systems etc. My malfunction clearing/reloading skills are definitely on par if not above. I'm no Travis Haley but I'm pretty good.

I guess with enough practice you can be good with a few different pistols, but as I have handled more and more guns I find features I really like and those I really dislike. I'm a HUGE fan of DAO or SAO weapons. Either one is fine. As long as the trigger pull is consistent every single time, I'm ok. While there are some very smooth DA/SA triggers out there I always found personally under rapid fire the first shot got pulled while my SA shots were pretty much dead on.

I think my experience yesterday was surprising, but it really shouldn't be. I haven't shot paper for a while. Also being on the line with other people, in front of my family, I felt a little bit of "butterflies in my stomach" for some reason. I'm now in a position where I can afford to shoot a lot more, and I'm finding that my brother, who has been borderline estranged for years - is an excellent shot and seems excited about it. He didn't jump out and start begging me to take him to the range but I mentioned shooting here and there, and he seemed enthusiastic. He works with cameras and shoots a LOT of pictures, so I guess his having to hold a camera up with a steady hand helps him a lot with his grip, trigger control and even sight picture. The only thing he has trouble with was the weapons manipulation but obviously that can be overcome easily if his fundamentals are so good.

I know I'm not the best shot out there, but I will always work to get better. I don't believe there's ever a "top", you can always improve, always get better. And just when you think you're the best you come up against someone who's better! While I love working on guns, I like shooting them even more. Some of the guys I work with don't even shoot outside of work... I'm the other way around. To truly understand what I'm working on I know I need to push my own limits in terms of shooting accurately, quickly, and above all safely. Time to build a new reloading/work bench/coffee table thing for my apartment and start cranking out some reloads, and get to the range every weekend if I can.

BTW, specialization is for insects.

Join the Army and work in the armory and do a lot of shooting.

A person has to have the desire to be a great marksman, you can't teach them if they don't have the desire.

Start with a well-made .22 and pick your guns with marksmanship in mind from there.

Mooseman said:

Some people seem to be natural born shooters.

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Isn't that the truth.

I had a small group English univ. class in Seoul last summer and we shot paper with pellet guns to do something fun and different. There was one woman who had never shot before. She shot a glock 19 replica. She hit the bull's eye more often than not from across the room. Everyone was amazed. If she lived in a country where she could shoot freely, I'm sure she would pick up the sport.