Wyoming Bear Attack - Condition 3 Glock Useless

CrazySanMan said:

Most of those are black bear accounts and a black bear is not a grizzly, not even close when it comes to size or aggressiveness. .

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Of the 37 cases described, 19 were specifically identified as grizzlys. There are 4 cases of 9mm taking down a grizzly.

To quote the author

Successful bear defenses with a pistol are probably under-reported, much like successful firearm defenses against criminals.

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In a different study "Efficacy of firearms for bear deterrence in Alaska", https://wildlife.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/jwmg.342, the authors note an 84% success rate for stopping bear attacks with handguns.

It’s surprising with all the marketing campaigns out there that some ammo maker hasn’t tried to develop and market special “Grizzly Defense Ammo”.

ToolAA said:

It’s surprising with all the marketing campaigns out there that some ammo maker hasn’t tried to develop and market special “Grizzly Defense Ammo”.

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Their lawyers would never let them label a product that would provide someone's family with an excuse to sue them into oblivion when Uncle Bob got eaten anyway. "But he used Grizzly Defense Ammo and still had to watch that bear eat his legs before he died!"

Occam said:

Their lawyers would never let them label a product that would provide someone's family with an excuse to sue them into oblivion when Uncle Bob got eaten anyway. "But he used Grizzly Defense Ammo and still had to watch that bear eat his legs before he died!"

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I’m sure that lawyers would take that position. However products like bear spray exists and they are not always effective at preventing someone from becoming bear food. If there were an ammo that was tested and shown to be more effective at shredding bear flesh why wouldn’t someone want to pay extra for it.

Alan3413 said:

Handguns (.38 spc) and up have a 97% success rate when used defensively against bears. Some were sphincter-clenchingly close, but the only time it failed seemed to be when the shooter missed.

Of note is the lowly 9mm that saved the life of the wielder in 4 separate cases.

https://www.ammoland.com/2018/02/de...s-rate-37-incidents-by-caliber/#axzz5Xd5kZ3N2

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That's a very interesting report. Almost as interesting as the reports on how successful handguns are against bears are the implied results of how ineffective bear spray is. Of course that conclusion is admittedly skewed since if bear spray worked the people would never have had to resort to a firearm, but I thought it was interesting nonetheless.

Occam said:

Their lawyers would never let them label a product that would provide someone's family with an excuse to sue them into oblivion when Uncle Bob got eaten anyway. "But he used Grizzly Defense Ammo and still had to watch that bear eat his legs before he died!"

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Here is the 454 Casull ammo I carry in grizzly country

Could the guide have eventually brought his Glock into play from Condition Three, if he had been actually wearing it ? Maybe .

The Condition number system was originated around 1911 system , and applying to to newflagled designs sometimes turns in semantics fine print . I would consider a chambered Glock to be Condition One , and if argued to be somthing else, it would be Condition Zero rather than Two .

Lots of anecdotal about Bear Defense . One of the few people with enough personal first hand experience , with multiple cals is Phil Shoemaker , hunting guide and occasional gun/ hunting writer , who lives year round in a remote cabin in prime Grizz country in Lake Clark AK . His most recent one shot defense against a PO'ed Grizz was done with 9mm fmj .

Phil's experience is that for up close and personal , the only thing that is rapidly effective is a head shot, with a round that will penetrate the skull . Anywhere else, with anything handheld or shoulder fired will allow Mr Grizz to keep going long enough for several bites or bitchslaps . Anything that penetrates the skull will be equally effective .

He has long written that hot 158gr .357 from a 4in will penetrate Grizz skull . Now we know 9x19 fmj will also .

On a side note - In Africa back in the day , Browning Hi Powers were commonly used for just in case Lion defense . Supposedly the method went like this ; Extend left arm to the Lion for his dining plaesure . While the left arm is being eaten , use right hand to insert pistol to the Lion's ear, and empty mag .

ToolAA said:

It’s surprising with all the marketing campaigns out there that some ammo maker hasn’t tried to develop and market special “Grizzly Defense Ammo”.

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Buffalo Bore has “dangerous game” or “outdoorsman” handgun loads

Biggfoot44 said:

<snip>

On a side note - In Africa back in the day , Browning Hi Powers were commonly used for just in case Lion defense . Supposedly the method went like this ; Extend left arm to the Lion for his dining pleasure . While the left arm is being eaten , use right hand to insert pistol to the Lion's ear, and empty mag .

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I've also read that .303 British was used to kill lions. I suspect that in both cases, it was a matter of figuring out how to use what you have on hand, rather than either being considered the "best" tool for the job.

ToolAA said:

It’s surprising with all the marketing campaigns out there that some ammo maker hasn’t tried to develop and market special “Grizzly Defense Ammo”.

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I read that US wildlife service uses Garrett hardcast rounds - that's in 45-70, though. A check on their website does show 454 casull.

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CrazySanMan said:

I've studied this extensively because my wife and I have taken our kids on hikes in grizzly country. I carry a 45 acp or 357 in black bear country but if it's grizzly country I carry 454 casull.

"'mag dumping his Glock twice into the moose while on a snowmobile"
That's a whole lot different than being covered in blood while butchering an elk at the beginning of a grizzly's hibernation period when they are desperate to consume every possible calorie before hibernating, and the grizzly has a cub with it to boot.

I'm certain that if the glock had fired and wounded the bear both men would be dead, not just one. That bear had not one but three signs of being aggressive to the death - it's cub was there, there was a fresh elk kill and a human covered in blood from the elk, and the bear was acting abnormally and overly aggressive.



Most of those are black bear accounts and a black bear is not a grizzly, not even close when it comes to size or aggressiveness. Sure, any round can stop a bear with a lucky shot, at one time the world record brown bear was taken by an elderly woman with 22LR, but that bear wasn't charging a blood covered human at an elk kill site with it's cub present when it was shot. A brown bear, with a cub, at a fresh kill site, is not going to be deterred by a warning shot and wounding momma griz with her cub nearby is the last thing you want to do.

Anyone who is interested in learning about bear attacks and preventing them should read this book:

Bear Attacks: Their Causes and Avoidance by Stephen Herrero

I spend so much time in bear country that I have been constantly reading that book since about 2009. Every time I finish it I start again so it's always fresh in my mind.

Remember the 4-3-1 rule and follow it the next time, and every time, you are in grizzly country. At least 40 caliber, at least 300 grain bullet, at least 1000 fps, and bigger is better as long as you can shoot it accurately.

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Perhaps your "studies" need to be broadened to be more extensive. At least 2 hostile brown/griz have been killed in Alaska this year by guys using a 10 MM, one of them using Buffalo Bore 220 grain that you are claiming to be insufficient. Pretty sure the AK bears would make a typical CO griz look a little undersized.

My wildlife biologist friend recommendation for Kodiak Island, discharge a round and kill the griz responding to the shot. He claims that the griz on Kodiak are responding to discharged rounds, knowing there will be food there.

MDHunter said:

Perhaps your "studies" need to be broadened to be more extensive. At least 2 hostile brown/griz have been killed in Alaska this year by guys using a 10 MM, one of them using Buffalo Bore 220 grain that you are claiming to be insufficient. Pretty sure the AK bears would make a typical CO griz look a little undersized.

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You should broaden your "studies" also. There are no grizzlies in CO.

Like I said earlier, the once world record brown bear was taken by an old Eskimo woman with a 22LR. Are you going to tell me that 22LR is an acceptable round for grizzly defense? The 22 was a well placed, lucky shot, just like the 9mm kill and like the 10mm rounds. Those results aren't repeatable time after time like 44, 45LC, 454 Casull, 460, etc.

You can trust your life to a 10mm, I won't and most people in brown/grizzly territory won't either.

Hard cast is key

whistlersmother said:

I read that US wildlife service uses Garrett hardcast rounds - that's in 45-70, though. A check on their website does show 454 casull.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

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It is recommended to use a hard cast bullet to penetrate thru skull/bone etc.

I use Buffalo bore Heavy .45 Colt +P OUTDOORSMAN
325 gr. L.B.T.-L.F.N. @ 1,325 fps/M.E. 1,267 ft.lbs.
20 Round Box

ITEM 3A

out of a Redhawk in W-MD as a Black Bear contingency plan. Not all 45LCs can shoot this round safely, so check. I asked Taurus about using this in a Judge and they responded w/ a Hell NO! This round kicks like a 44 mag. but should do the job.

CrazySanMan said:

You should broaden your "studies" also. There are no grizzlies in CO.

Like I said earlier, the once world record brown bear was taken by an old Eskimo woman with a 22LR. Are you going to tell me that 22LR is an acceptable round for grizzly defense? The 22 was a well placed, lucky shot, just like the 9mm kill and like the 10mm rounds. Those results aren't repeatable time after time like 44, 45LC, 454 Casull, 460, etc.

You can trust your life to a 10mm, I won't and most people in brown/grizzly territory won't either.

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An Alaskan guide with over 100 brown, grizzly, and black bear kills to his credit sees fit to carry a 10mm when he is guiding bear hunters.

Some other guys prefer the higher capacity of the 15 round 10mm magazine. The hunter on Afognak was able to put 12 rounds into the brownie that had attacked his friend, saving his life. The bear may have been harmless sooner, but he wasn't going to stop firing until the bear was motionless.

Not trying to tell you what to carry, or not to carry. But saying the 10mm is insufficient to kill grizzles doesn't match up with what seems to be happening in real life. Do you know of any situations where a hunter or guide shot a griz with a 10mm, and got mauled?

To put things in context ; It is a very common inquiry asking about the best " Bear Load" for 4in .357 magnum . By most reasonings , a 10mm is substantial step up from any .357 .

( Since I brought it up , the answer would be hard cast 158gr SWC , handloaded with max load of 296/ 2400/ similar . " Answer " being relative to fixed parameter of a .357 .)

Biggfoot44 said:

To put things in context ; It is a very common inquiry asking about the best " Bear Load" for 4in .357 magnum . By most reasonings , a 10mm is substantial step up from any .357 .

( Since I brought it up , the answer would be hard cast 158gr SWC , handloaded with max load of 296/ 2400/ similar . " Answer " being relative to fixed parameter of a .357 .)

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In that context "bear" means black bear. A black bear is a completely different animal than a grizzly. They are less fat, less muscular, their bones are smaller and thinner, and they are much less aggressive than grizzlies. .357 is more than sufficient to take a black bear. Not a grizzly, not without a very well placed shot or several reloads worth of hits and a lot of time for them to bleed out. I used to carry 45 acp in black bear country, I recently switched to .357 in an SP-101 because it's easier to carry and operate than the 45 was.

A black bear's natural tendency is to avoid conflict. They are not aggressive by nature, black bear are the bullies of the forest. Stand up to them and they back down. They will bluff charge several times in an effort to scare away a human and avoid a confrontation. You can fight back against a black bear, or just make yourself look big and make loud noises, and they will leave. A grizzly will spot you from 400 yards away and charge you with a blood lust, only stopping the attack when one of you are dead. A 350 pound grizzly is much more dangerous and much more difficult to kill than a 600 pound black bear.

MDHunter said:

Some other guys prefer the higher capacity of the 15 round 10mm magazine. The hunter on Afognak was able to put 12 rounds into the brownie that had attacked his friend, saving his life. The bear may have been harmless sooner, but he wasn't going to stop firing until the bear was motionless.

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Given enough rounds fired and enough time for blood loss, any firearm will take a grizzly. You have to stop and ask yourself however, if they played dead instead of fighting back, would they have received less injuries in the attack? The answer is probably yes.

Grizzlies attack to eliminate a threat. Once they see the threat is dead they stop the attack and leave. That's why you play dead for grizzlies. If you drop and play dead a grizzly may bite a few times to ensure you are dead, then they will leave you alone because they think you are already dead. Fight back against one and they will continue attacking until one of you, or both of you, dies. Those guys you mentioned made the attack worse by emptying a 10mm mag into the grizzly. A superior caliber would have ended the confrontation sooner, and simply playing dead would most likely have been the very best option for reducing the injuries sustained in the attack.

MDHunter said:

Not trying to tell you what to carry, or not to carry. But saying the 10mm is insufficient to kill grizzles doesn't match up with what seems to be happening in real life. Do you know of any situations where a hunter or guide shot a griz with a 10mm, and got mauled?

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The guy you mentioned above got mauled, didn't he? He would have walked away with less injuries if they both played dead when the bear charged.

A grizzly will cover 40 yards in less than two seconds when they charge. You're only going to get one or two shots at best before it's on top of you if the noise doesn't scare it away. A 10mm is much less likely to be an incapacitating shot to a charging grizzly than 44 mag, 45 LC, 454 Casull, etc. Your insisting on 10mm for grizzlies is like insisting on 25 or 32 for concealed carry. Sure, people have been killed with those rounds, but there are better, faster ways to take someone down than with a 25. More people have been killed with 22LR than any other handgun caliber. Are you going to carry that for defense or are you going to rely on something heavier?

It's your life, hike your own hike. If you want to risk your life on an inferior round because you read about a lucky 9 or 10mm shot on the internet, go ahead. I'll keep carrying 454 Casull in grizzly country and rest assured knowing that I can stop a charging cape water buffalo with it if I need to.

Davy Crockett weeps.

MDHunter said:

An Alaskan guide with over 100 brown, grizzly, and black bear kills to his credit sees fit to carry a 10mm when he is guiding bear hunters.

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Just because an Alaskan guide with over 100 brown, grizzly, and black bear kills to his credit sees fit to carry a 10mm when he is guiding bear hunters doesn't mean that the 10mm is perfectly acceptable and capable for grizzly and brown bear defense. In my mind it makes that guy an idiot and I'm sure most Alaskans would agree. He's responsible for the safety of his clients in the field and is being negligent by relying on a 10mm in Alaskan brown bear territory, IMHO.