Over penetration?

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  • cb51

    Active Member
    For self defense most the so called experts all recommend 9mm/.38 special and up. A lot of people go to the .40 and .45acp.

    But, although I have used .38 special for abut 40 years, I've always stuck with the mild 148 grain full wadcutter target load. I am concerned with over penetration. If I have to shoot some meth head would be mugger, I don't want my bullet going all the through him and on down the street or across the parking lot and nailing some innocent by stander.

    At this stage of my life, the .380 and .32 act are becoming attractive to me.

    How much penetration is really needed for real world use in urban conditions?
     

    Blaster229

    God loves you, I don't.
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 14, 2010
    46,407
    Glen Burnie
    First penetration concern is clothing. Heavy leather coat? Big puffy down coat where hollow points can swallow feather/fibers before entering a body. Mouse gun calibers could have trouble with clothing/outer garments.
    A person's first concern should being able to hit the target, not worrying about a hollow point bullet actually going through a body and hitting a bystander. Worry about if you can hit your threat first.

    Don't sacrifice "good" penetration by not having a bigger caliber to take care of business year round. Just not in warm weather when people are just wearing t shirts.
     

    Rack&Roll

    R.I.P
    Patriot Picket
    Jan 23, 2013
    22,304
    Bunkerville, MD
    If you are not trying to shoot through windshields or cover, .38 Special wadcutters are nice rounds.

    In fact the OP will be pleased to know that I am Open Carrying his bobbed S&W Model 60 today at the Chincoteague Island Fireman's Carnival.

    cb51 sold it to me a while back. It was his BUG pocket gun as a rookie police officer in the early 1980's, and I am proud to own it now.
     

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    Name Taken

    Ultimate Member
    Feb 23, 2010
    11,891
    Central
    Anyone have shootings where a round hit where it was supposed to, went through the "meth head", and struck some innocent person?

    It's not happening with the high quality self defense rounds of today.

    The shootings where rounds hit innocent are poor hits and misses.

    No reason to give up capability to a small outdated caliber if you hit what your shooting at.
     

    smokey

    2A TEACHER
    Jan 31, 2008
    31,412
    You will get some really good answers to this question, and its very valid.

    I'd stick with .38 special. I find the recoil in most tiny .380's about the same as .38, both are snappy, but managable, and larger/heavier guns in either caliber have less recoil.

    If you are thinking to change calibers and want to stick with a revolver, but need lower recoil due to age, whatever, consider the .22WMR. Those .38special wadcutters are about as soft shooting as I've found, even the 'reduced recoil' stuff is about the same as the wadcutters.

    FBI report says they want consistent minimum 12" of penetration, that's under their very controlled and specific tests. I'm willing to settle on less, say 8-10", if the trade-off is a much smaller gun, that I can shoot well. By shooting well I mean- I can hit with it accurately, and has lower recoil, so I can get accurate follow up shots. Interestingly, the FBI take away points for penetration over 18", makes sense though.
    Keep in mind skin roughly equates to 4" of ballistics gel... add in bones, the fact that the person you're shooting will likely NOT be standing square with arms to the side, and that most important structures are to the rear of the thoracic cavity...I'd much rather have a bullet that gets out to the 16" mark than barely gets 12. When you're counting on rapid blood loss, an entrance and exit hole could also be a good thing to make the badguy more leaky.

    You should also take for granted that you're going to miss a few shots and plan accordingly if you can. If you're able to drop to a knee and shoot up, shoot down from stairs with the ground as a backdrop, or otherwise position yourself in a room to give yourself a relatively clear background, that's going to help more than using an ineffective cartridge for defense.

    If you're using an ineffective cartridge, chances are also more likely that you'll have to fire more shots for the desired effect. In this way, it could be considered "safer" to shoot one 12 ga segmented slug into a badguy that stops him instead of firing 20 shots of .22 that doesn't. Another way to think is assume you have a pretty good 50% hit rate. If a 230 gr hst takes 5 hits to stop someone, but a 32 takes 10 to create similar trauma, which one is really a bigger threat to people in the background?

    Food for thought.
     

    cb51

    Active Member
    If you are thinking to change calibers and want to stick with a revolver, but need lower recoil due to age, whatever, consider the .22WMR. Those .38special wadcutters are about as soft shooting as I've found, even the 'reduced recoil' stuff is about the same as the wadcutters.

    .

    The Smith and Wesson 351 is getting VERY seriously looked at. The .22 mag has some very nice things going for it, and the gun is much lighter than my old all steel .38. This one may be the final contender, especially as one of my little NAA mini revolvers is the .22 mag.
     

    cb51

    Active Member
    If you want information on caliber effectiveness, I found the following article pretty enlightening.

    https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power

    I was surprised at how effective some of the smaller calibers could be given what people have been saying about the larger ones.

    Yeah, I've read that, and it backs up a lot of what my own personal experience has been both growing up in D.C. and my experience as a police officer. I've seen too many shootings with .22's and .25's to put much stickers ck in those moronic statements that a .22 or .25 will only make someone angrier. There was Al who died from a single .25 round out of a Raven back in the late 80's, and the others I saw first hand the immediate aftermath of shootings with a .22. One of the .22 shootings was with a rifle, the other three were cheap RG or Clerke revolvers. All victims were down on the pavement out of action.

    I may go for the S&W 351 for a light pocket gun.
     

    judah7

    Banned
    BANNED!!!
    Mar 18, 2017
    691
    For self defense most the so called experts all recommend 9mm/.38 special and up. A lot of people go to the .40 and .45acp.

    But, although I have used .38 special for abut 40 years, I've always stuck with the mild 148 grain full wadcutter target load. I am concerned with over penetration. If I have to shoot some meth head would be mugger, I don't want my bullet going all the through him and on down the street or across the parking lot and nailing some innocent by stander.

    At this stage of my life, the .380 and .32 act are becoming attractive to me.

    How much penetration is really needed for real world use in urban conditions?

    Brassfetcher.com and YouTube video's is your best friend with this type of question.

    Also shot placement is what I've learned is more important.
     

    montoya32

    Ultimate Member
    Patriot Picket
    Jun 16, 2010
    11,311
    Harford Co
    While I can appreciate the concern for safety and details, overthinking has gotten people killed. Find a good round designed for self-defense and go with it. Most any modern self-defense round is going to be sufficient. Reinventing the wheel does not move the cart down the road any further than it already is. For me, I carry Hornady Critical Defense.
     

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