Is 308 Garand built on 50+ year old USGI receiver a C&R rifle?

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  • My Toy

    Ultimate Member
    Jul 31, 2008
    1,194
    Westminster
    I posted a question earlier about source for reloading brass for the M1 Garand. I was thinking about purchasing or having built an M1 Garand with a USGI receiver and 308 barrel to be able to use ammo/reloading components that are less expensive than 06. In researching this I came across several interesting discussions as to whether a Garand built on a 50+ year old receiver rebarreled to 308 qualifies to be a C&R rifle. A USGI Garand in it's original configuration is without a doubt a C&R. What about the the Garand with a USGI receiver rebarreled to 308 in it's original configuration with the same caliber just a different cartridge? Your thoughts?
     

    iH8DemLibz

    When All Else Fails.
    Apr 1, 2013
    25,396
    Libtardistan
    C&R covers firearms in their original configuration.

    A Garand in .308 Winchester caliber is not original configuration.

    Some will say it's based upon the receiver itself.

    But that's a stretch.
     

    Augie

    Ultimate Member
    Sep 30, 2007
    4,504
    Central MD
    The ones the Navy, Marines and Air Force converted to .308 have been sold as C&R so I would say good to go.
     

    Drmsparks

    Old School Rifleman
    Jun 26, 2007
    8,441
    PG county
    The ones the Navy, Marines and Air Force converted to .308 have been sold as C&R so I would say good to go.

    Problem is for modern conversions- if the conversion was not done by the military and was done by an individual less than 50 years ago I'd say no.
     

    Blacksmith101

    Grumpy Old Man
    Jun 22, 2012
    22,154
    The CMP sells (currently sold out) the CMP Special grade in .308. They were priced just under $1,000 and are beautiful rifles that look brand new, keep an eye on the web site they may be available again if you qualify and CMP ships direct to you. Here is the description:
    CMP Special (.308) M1 Garand. This is a completely refurbished rifle consisting of an original M1 Garand Springfield or HRA receiver, new production Criterion barrel, new production American Walnut stock and handguards, and new web sling. Receiver and most other parts are refinished USGI, but some parts may be new manufacture. A .308 spacer block is installed to prevent the loading of a .30-06 round into the chamber.
     

    stu929

    M1 Addict
    Jan 2, 2012
    6,605
    Hagerstown
    They don't ship based on C&R rules. Not sure if that's what you were alluding to or not.

    Sent from my LG-K428 using Tapatalk
     

    mgbill

    Active Member
    Apr 19, 2007
    370
    Mount Airy, MD
    The closest thing I can find for guidance on this question is the 1st topic under Frequently Asked Questions in ATF Publication 5300.11 (Firearms Curios or Relics List). It is not really definitive and leans on an ATF ruling discussing the importation of military C&R firearms. They conclude that a firearm must be in its original condition to be considered a C&R weapon. Then they go on to "opine" that minor changes do not affect originality. Some examples are given that help a bit, but do not address your question specifically.

    If pressed, I would hazard a guess that rechambering to another cartridge would change the classification.

    Have fun wrapping your head around this one.
     

    Mike OTDP

    Ultimate Member
    Feb 12, 2008
    3,318
    It's a good question. OTOH, .308 conversions are a legitimate, issued military configuration. Somehow I don't see ATF being willing to prosecute.
     

    j_h_smith

    Ultimate Member
    Jul 28, 2007
    28,516
    I would say if you look up the serial number and it's listed in the range of 30.06 firearms, it's not going to be C&R eligible. If the firearm started it's life as a 30.06, I don't think it matters who converted it to 308, it's not in it's original form and rebarreling to a different caliber isn't a minor revision.

    YMMV
     

    j_h_smith

    Ultimate Member
    Jul 28, 2007
    28,516
    Unless it was rebarreled to .308 50 years ago.

    Maybe you can school me. I thought it had to be in the original configuration to be considered C&R. I didn't think that the age of the rebarrel had anything to do with it. Once it has been rebarreled to 308 doesn't the rifle always lose the C&R classification?
     

    lee2

    Banned
    BANNED!!!
    Oct 8, 2007
    19,012
    how many times do you think a typical GI garand has been rebuilt/ re-arsenaled?
    does it make anything less than a garand?
     

    j_h_smith

    Ultimate Member
    Jul 28, 2007
    28,516
    From the BATF page:

    Firearms automatically attain C&R status when they are 50 years old. Any firearm that is at least 50 years old, and in its original configuration, would qualify as a C&R firearm.

    Since the Garand was originally built as a 30.06, I can't see how a 308 qualifies.
     

    My Toy

    Ultimate Member
    Jul 31, 2008
    1,194
    Westminster
    how many times do you think a typical GI garand has been rebuilt/ re-arsenaled?
    does it make anything less than a garand?

    So, would the service grade 30-06 Garands I purchased from CMP in 2002 be C&R rifles even though I'm sure they have been re-arsenaled at least once?
    What if I had a worn out 30-06 barrel replaced with a new barrel of original configuration to maintain the shootablity of the rifle? Does this effect it's C&R status?
    Then this begs the question about the C&R status of CMP special grade in 30-06? What do you think?
     

    Combloc

    Stop Negassing me!!!!!
    Nov 10, 2010
    7,212
    In a House
    By the letter of the law, the rifle is not C&R. IMO, "original configuration" means how it was the day it left government (or their authorized entity) ownership.
     

    ken792

    Ultimate Member
    Sep 2, 2011
    4,480
    Fairfax, VA
    Here is all they say in the FAQ section.

    Page 52 https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/g...r-relics-list-1972-2007-atf-p-530011/download
    It is also the opinion of FTB, however, that a minor change such as the addition of scope mounts, non-original sights, or sling swivels would not remove a firearm from its original condition. Moreover, we have determined that replacing particular firearms parts with new parts that are made to the original design would also be acceptable—for example, replacing a cracked M1 Grand [misspelled in the original ATF document] stock with a new wooden stock of the same design, but replacing the original firearm stock with a plastic stock would change its classification as a C&R item.

    I guess the question is whether a caliber change would count as a "minor change". The barrel does retain the original exterior profile.

    I believe the Italian 7.62 NATO conversions predate the US Navy ones. They had new made 7.62 NATO barrels with the same external dimensions as the Tipo 1, and cut back and rechambered barrels as the Tipo 2. While not original to the "U.S. Rifle Ca. .30M1", a 7.62/.308 barrel could be original to a US Navy conversion or an Italian conversion.
     

    j_h_smith

    Ultimate Member
    Jul 28, 2007
    28,516
    I'll send an email to Mark Johnson, COO of the CMP. He took over the program after Orest Michaels retired in 2014. My uncle is friends with Orest and I got to meet him in 2011. Hopefully Mark will be able to put this discussion to bed. Lets see if I get a response.
     

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