Breakthrough Innovation for Long Range Shooting

Bikebreath · Oct 22, 2018

Big claims...you decide.

Story:
https://www.ammoland.com/2018/10/pr..._6f6fac3eaa-3cc7ef6321-21189649#axzz5UhuOaHo2

Video:
https://youtu.be/xDR5acPtehg

Qbeam · Oct 22, 2018

Aerodynamically it is better, it probably costs a pretty penny as well.

Q

Blacksmith101 · Oct 22, 2018

Looks like a long bullet so you might want to run it through the Greenhill formula to check your twist rate.

Pinecone · Oct 23, 2018

Maybe.

But what is the likelihood of a small company (relatively), coming up with something that totally escaped Sierra, Lupua, Barnes, Hornady, etc, etc.

Show me that it does what you claim, and I will buy some. But you have to SHOW ME.

E.Shell · Oct 23, 2018

We have discussed this concept in the ballistics section of several classes in the past.

Because turbulence at the base clearly represents a huge amount of drag, it would seem obvious that making the base fully tapered would have big benefits. I always guessed that there were production issues related to this.

As Pinecone points out, it is surprising, in a way, that the bigger companies with deeper research pockets would not have done this already. I suspect it has a lot to do with the overhead and risk related to making such drastic changes vs the monetary return from such a specialized (small) clientele`. Maybe it actually takes a small company to be mobile enough to exploit this.

Remember how small Berger was when they developed the "VLD"?

APGIllini · Oct 23, 2018

Description indicates a monolithic lathe-turned projectile, likely a non-starter for the larger producers. Modern cnc equipment could match the precision, but difficult to scale for non-specialty applications.

E.Shell · Oct 23, 2018

APGIllini said:
Description indicates a monolithic lathe-turned projectile, likely a non-starter for the larger producers. Modern cnc equipment could match the precision, but difficult to scale for non-specialty applications.

Very good point.

In fact, monolithic bullets that have been turned can be very hard to work with in many ways. We burned up about 80 .408 CheyTacs, shooting many of them through a chronograph at the muzzle and a second chronograph at the target (calculating BCs).

We had wide variations in muzzle velocity, but because we referenced every shot on both chronographs, it really didn't interfere with what we were doing. For the distances it was advertised for, no way could one keep them all on target simply due the fact that velocity deviations led to groups that were sometimes taller than the target.

Because of the hardness of the turned bullet, they do not obturate well and can leak. We experienced some gas cutting, in which the bullet was apparently slightly undersize and created a huge amount of metal fouling. Sometimes, we could shoot a string of 20 or so and have good results, then pressures would jump and heavy fouling was visible, especially at the last few inches before the muzzle.

Monolithic bullets that are drawn and/or swaged, like Barnes, can be fine. I have seen Barnes deliver excellent precision and consistent velocities in several calibers, not to mention the boringly superb terminal performance.

Be interesting to see if they overcome the potential issues. Such a bullet would change things considerably. By being long for its weight, a lighter bullet can still have a high BC but be used at higher velocity in any given capacity case.

Pinecone · Oct 24, 2018

Interesting thing. Back a long time ago, race cars had tapered rear sections for this same reason.

Then a guy named Kamm found out that a chopped off tail has less drag than a tapered tail.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wunibald_Kamm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kammback

Bikebreath · Oct 24, 2018

Pinecone said:
Interesting thing. Back a long time ago, race cars had tapered rear sections for this same reason.

Then a guy named Kamm found out that a chopped off tail has less drag than a tapered tail.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wunibald_Kamm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kammback

Any boat tail cars

I posted the OP for discussion. I clearly know less that what I’m reading here.

Doco Overboard · Oct 24, 2018

I thought I was going to read.... just get closer.

alucard0822 · Oct 24, 2018

Looks like a torroidal aerospike shape, interesting in that it is very aerodynamic at a really wide range of air pressures and velocities

Park ranger · Oct 27, 2018

Total crap. Be a nice April 1 story tho. Read a few of Bryan Litz books and you'll see by this won't be better than a flat base, let alone a boattail.

E.Shell · Oct 27, 2018

In a nutshell, Park Ranger, why?

outrider58 · Oct 27, 2018

I believe this was actually debunked prior to 2015, but this works...

OK, not a bullet you say, but it is the same thinking.

BTW, I have a 20" AR "precision" rifle. I tried all the best known precision bullets, all of which were boat tailed. The best, most accurate bullet I found(by accident) was a flat-based bullet. Certainly not scientific research by any stretch, but results speak for themselves.

Pinecone · Oct 29, 2018

Bullets are not boat tailed for accuracy.

They are boat tailed to maintain higher velocity at longer ranges.

Major03 · Oct 30, 2018

outrider58 said:
I believe this was actually debunked prior to 2015, but this works...

OK, not a bullet you say, but it is the same thinking.

BTW, I have a 20" AR "precision" rifle. I tried all the best known precision bullets, all of which were boat tailed. The best, most accurate bullet I found(by accident) was a flat-based bullet. Certainly not scientific research by any stretch, but results speak for themselves.

I'm guessing you're shooting at 200 yds and in? It's pretty well known that flat base bullets are generally more accurate at shorter ranges.

The boat tail keeps the bullets more aerodynamic which maintains their velocity longer...which at ranges of 600 yds and greater generally makes for greater precision as it's easier to dope your shots when the velocity is more consistent. At extreme ranges it keeps them supersonic at greater distances, which definitely helps.

Pinecone · Oct 30, 2018

Boat tails do not keep the velocity more consistent. It keeps it higher.

Higher velocity is less drop. And less wind effect.

Major03 · Oct 30, 2018

Yes in that the bullet's design doesn't effect how consistent the velocity is coming out of the barrel. True. Higher ballistic coefficients at extreme long range do keep the bullet supersonic longer however. As a bullet passes from supersonic to transonic, it becomes less stable. Depending on the bullet design, sometimes it can wobble enough to actually start tumbling. The inconsistency in the bullet's flight as and after it makes that transition to transonic will effect how much drag is created and therefore velocity and predictability. For example, the vaunted SMK 168's can sometimes start keyholing targets at 800 yds.

Somewhat semantics though, I'm actually in agreement that the reason a higher BC bullet is more precise at longer ranges is that it's easier to make errors in your elevation and windage corrections and get away with it.

Pinecone · Oct 31, 2018

Actually, the higher BC has smaller changes in POI based on mistakes of elevation and windage

Major03 · Oct 31, 2018

I think we're in agreement? Maybe I'm misunderstanding. How is what you're saying different? Not trying to be a smart ass...really interested in learning.

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