Belt-Feds banned in Maryland?
- Thread starter mdrpd
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GunBum
Active Member
I never stated belt fed firearms were not allowed. I was skeptical that belts over 10 rounds are allowed. Sure possession is fine, but sale, etc.?? I’d like to see some documentation by MSP that opening a top cover is disassembly. Especially since nothing is removed, hence no disassembly. It doesn’t fit the general usage of the word. I’d also like to see some documentation that belts don’t fit into the ammunition feeding device bucket. Don’t get me wrong, I’d be happy to see it, but I’m skeptical it exists.
For those of you who are history buffs, during the 94-04 Clinton AWB there were no imports of belts over 10 rounds. I still have a whole bunch of 7.5 French ammo that came in on belts and was broken into 10 round or less sections to be sold.
photoracer
Competition Shooter
During those same Clinton years one of my buddies received multiple ammo cans of linked ammo for his legally owned M-60 MG.
True, but federal law doesn't make or define MD law and MD law doesn't make or define federal
GunBum
Active Member
Belts in the US that existed prior to the law were grandfathered. Sale of grandfathered items wasn’t prohibited.
GunBum
Active Member
But it does imply a precedence and definition that already exists. That’s the sticky wicket of an ambiguous law. It is open to a prosecutor or judge’s interpretation. And by extension, it is also open to an individual’s interpretation.
There is no such thing as an implied definition. Definitions are actually specifially written into law. Read a few pages of COMAR and you will see this, over and over.
Federal and state law remain separate and something defined in one is not automatically transfered to the other; it takes explicit inclusion for a federal defintion to apply in state law.
Here is the neat thing about laws in Maryland, unless it is specifically defined, then it's not illegal. Belts and links ARE NOT defined in state law, thus they are NOT illegal.
Further, in the discussion with MSP, they likened the opening of the cover and opening the action to load a round the same as basically disassembly of the action. There is nothing in writing simply a conversation I had with the Commander of Licensing Division back when I was President of MSI (for whatever that is worth to the conversation).
A definition in federal law does not equal a definition in state law, especially in light of fact that it was specifically defined in federal law and IS NOT specifically defined in state law.
jcutonilli
Ultimate Member
- Mar 28, 2013
- 2,474
That is a magazine. The general definition of a magazine is simply a chamber that holds ammunition. Maryland does not regulate magazines in general though.
Maryland regulates detachable magazines or more specifically removable ammunition feeding devices. It also regulates certain semiauto centerfire rifle and semiauto pistols with fixed magazines greater than 10 rounds.
What is pictured is neither a MD regulated detachable magazine nor a fixed magazine in a MD regulated configuration.
somd_mustangs
-----
- Jul 1, 2012
- 5,734
I'd counter with it's just a box full of ammo because it doesn't actively feed, nor truly retain the ammo... turn it upside down and it'll fall out.
jcutonilli
Ultimate Member
- Mar 28, 2013
- 2,474
It does not really matter whether opening the top cover is considered disassembly. Belts fail the ammunition feeding device portion of the definition.
How does the belt actually feed the ammunition? All it does is connect one round to another. No actual movement/feeding of ammunition is capable with just a belt.
With a typical detachable box magazine, one can remove the top round and the magazine will feed another round. No additional parts are needed. If you remove a round from a belt, any remaining rounds to not move/feed.
jcutonilli
Ultimate Member
- Mar 28, 2013
- 2,474
A box of ammo does meet the general definition of a magazine because it is a chamber for holding ammo.
The MD definition of a "detachable magazine" is really a detachable ammo feeding device rather than a magazine. A box of ammo would not meet the MD definition because it is not capable of feeding ammo.
Oldcarjunkie
R.I.P
“DETACHABLE MAGAZINE” MEANS AN AMMUNITION FEEDING DEVICE THAT CAN BE REMOVED READILY FROM A FIREARM WITHOUT REQUIRING DISASSEMBLY OF THE FIREARM ACTION OR WITHOUT THE USE OF A TOOL, INCLUDING A BULLET OR CARTRIDGE.“
How is opening the top cover disassembly? And if it is allowed, why won’t anyone ship one into Maryland. For Pete’s sake. What are you attacking me? I’m not the enemy. Go after the MGA.
Aim surplus was willing to send my Rpd to Md, they just would not send the belts themselves cause they are linked and over 10 rounds.
And some vendors will not ship to MoCo and Annapolis, some will not ship guns that are legal in MD.
I don't know if you notice it too, but I see a disturbing desire of folks to see something in writing from government clearly saying the thing they want to do or own is legal, and without that affirmation, they're afraid to move forward.
Some people have difficulty with the idea that unless it's something that requires a permit or license, they will not find written governmental approval of their behavior. The state doesn't (and shouldn't!) provide citizens a list of things that are OK (a list of "do's), it provides a list of things that are not legal (a list of "don'ts").
If you cannot find the thing you want to do or get on the list of don'ts, or discover that a permit or license is required, do it or get it. Yes, it's challenging or even disconcerting to have to prove a negative. You need to look skillfully or extensively to determine there isn't a restriction or prohibition on what you want. Some folks lack the confidence to do that, but that's the way it is.
For a humorous take on this, here's Newton Minow's great quote from a speech he gave in the '90's to the Association of American Law Schools. I know that you know, counselor, that the US is like France in the example.
"After 35 years, I have finished a comprehensive study of European comparative law. In Germany, under the law, everything is prohibited, except that which is permitted. In France, under the law, everything is permitted, except that which is prohibited. In the Soviet Union, under the law, everything is prohibited, including that which is permitted. And in Italy, under the law, everything is permitted, especially that which is prohibited."
FYI, Newt did some legal work for the family back in the '60's, after he left DC and returned to the practice of law Chicago. I have some docs with his signature. I smile when I think of it.
GunBum
Active Member
It’s called a “belt fed” so the belt feeds. It’s in the name. No movement or feeding is capable with a magazine unless some outside force is applied.
Nothing wording need be added.
Doco Overboard
Ultimate Member
Help me remember how a M2 feeds. How well does single loading work without a belt or links?
Pretty sure you have to hook the belt to the two pawls, close the cover and then push the retracting handle forward with bolt held back when in single shot, pull back and then let the bolt home together when in FA.
If I remember correctly you just don't drop one in the chamber with your fingers lol, you need a belt or feeding device to get the timing right.
jcutonilli
Ultimate Member
- Mar 28, 2013
- 2,474
You have not really answered the question of how the belt by itself actually feeds ammo. The law identified a detachable ammo feeding device as what is actually regulated. We are trying to figure out if the belt is the actual ammo feeding device or if some other part(s) may be what is regulated.
If no movement or feeding is capable with a magazine unless some outside force is applied, can it really be considered an ammo feeding device? What do the spring and follower do in a box magazine if some outside force is required to feed ammo?
It seems to me that a ammo feeding device is a device that is capable of feeding/moving ammo to the loading area of the firearm. In a box mag the spring and follower move the ammo to the correct loading area and are detachable. This is why certain removable box mags are regulated in MD. In belt fed firearms, the parts that actually feed the ammo are not detachable (without disassembly) and the part that actually holds the ammo is not fixed.
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