In just over a month 118 Red Flag PO’s

Not_an_outlaw · Dec 7, 2018

daNattyFatty said:
The officers were well within their rights to intervene after he became irate and grab his gun.

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You were there?

daNattyFatty · Dec 7, 2018

Not_an_outlaw said:
You were there?

The officers were there to serve a valid court order. Failing to comply with that order is a criminal offense. During service of the order, the respondents actions easily met probable cause that the respondent was not going to comply. The officers, now dealing with a criminal offense in their presence, do not require a warrant to enter the residence to stop that criminal offense. Further searching after the arrest is made would require the warrant.

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newmuzzleloader · Dec 7, 2018

ironpony said:
Define irate

The police are at your door telling you they are taking all your guns because somebody said you were a danger to somebody else. Not enough of a danger to lock you up but enough of a danger to take your rightful property away from you. Just because they can.

inkd · Dec 7, 2018

j_h_smith said:
I still don't know that the ERPO was filed by the sister.

https://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/crime/bs-md-aa-shooting-20181105-story.html

Police had come to the house Sunday night to speak with Willis, a longtime resident of the neighborhood, said Michele Willis, who was on the scene Monday morning and identified herself as his niece. She attributed that visit by police to “family being family” but declined to elaborate.

She said one of her aunts requested the protective order to temporarily remove Willis’ guns.

j_h_smith · Dec 7, 2018

daNattyFatty said:
The officers were there to serve a valid court order. Failing to comply with that order is a criminal offense. During service of the order, the respondents actions easily met probable cause that the respondent was not going to comply. The officers, now dealing with a criminal offense in their presence, do not require a warrant to enter the residence to stop that criminal offense. Further searching after the arrest is made would require the warrant.

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Nope, not true. A person can deny the ERPO and then the police must get a warrant. He was outside of his home when he was served the ERPO. He denied them access to his firearms. I'm pretty sure the law says that a warrant must then be served and an arrest will be made. They cannot enter into the house without a warrant for his arrest.

j_h_smith · Dec 7, 2018

inkd said:
https://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/crime/bs-md-aa-shooting-20181105-story.html

Police had come to the house Sunday night to speak with Willis, a longtime resident of the neighborhood, said Michele Willis, who was on the scene Monday morning and identified herself as his niece. She attributed that visit by police to “family being family” but declined to elaborate.

She said one of her aunts requested the protective order to temporarily remove Willis’ guns.

Request that the police obtain the ERPO or did she go to the court to file the ERPO? That has never been determined.

daNattyFatty · Dec 7, 2018

j_h_smith said:
Nope, not true. A person can deny the ERPO and then the police must get a warrant. He was outside of his home when he was served the ERPO. He denied them access to his firearms. I'm pretty sure the law says that a warrant must then be served and an arrest will be made. They cannot enter into the house without a warrant for his arrest.

Believe what you want. It’s called fresh pursuit. They can certainly enter the house to effect an arrest when they have probable cause to believe that a crime is being committed in their presence. They only need a warrant to search for and seize the firearms.

Take the order out of the equation. You have officers and citizens in a contentious situation. The citizen, while irate, reaches for and obtains a firearm. The officers are still well within their rights to enter and prevent the likely assault that’s about to take place.

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inkd · Dec 7, 2018

j_h_smith said:
Request that the police obtain the ERPO or did she go to the court to file the ERPO? That has never been determined.

My take on it was that if she requested it, she filled out the application. Of course I could be wrong on that too.

whistlersmother · Dec 7, 2018

j_h_smith said:
Nope, not true. A person can deny the ERPO and then the police must get a warrant. He was outside of his home when he was served the ERPO. He denied them access to his firearms. I'm pretty sure the law says that a warrant must then be served and an arrest will be made. They cannot enter into the house without a warrant for his arrest.

HoCo is to arrest for failing to comply and obtain a search order. My reading is a warrant for arrest is not needed because a crime has been committed right then and there but a warrant for the search is needed.

The really bad part of HoCo is if the officer feels you aren't fully complying, he can affect the arrest. How can that be objective? Even if a person turned over everything, the officer could still arrest you.

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babalou · Dec 7, 2018

exactly

willtill said:
At any rate to that first encounter with the LEO's, she followed on and her decided actions led to the later inadvertent/AND totally unnecessary death of her brother.

I have often wondered how she feels now and to this very day; as to how things turned out.

How does the rest of the family feel?

.

yup

Not_an_outlaw · Dec 7, 2018

daNattyFatty said:
The officers were there to serve a valid court order. Failing to comply with that order is a criminal offense. During service of the order, the respondents actions easily met probable cause that the respondent was not going to comply. The officers, now dealing with a criminal offense in their presence, do not require a warrant to enter the residence to stop that criminal offense. Further searching after the arrest is made would require the warrant.

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So you were there? You saw the whole thing?

Jim12 · Dec 7, 2018

Maryland State Bar Association is promoting to lawyers and their clients, use of the new law around the state. 10/10/18 seminar and Q&A (scroll down to bottom of link):

https://www.msba.org/blog/gun-violence-and-extreme-risk-protective-orders-watch-listen/

" Gun Violence and Extreme Risk Protective Orders Watch/Listen

The nation is still trying to process the horror of a mass shooting at a synagogue in Pittsburgh and a race-based killing in Jeffersontown Kentucky. When we are finally able to process our grief, we are left with the seemingly unanswerable problem of how to prevent the next tragedy. After the Parkland shooting, Maryland attempted to answer that question by creating, the Extreme Risk Protective Order, giving the courts and police a new tool to prevent gun violence. On October 10, 2018, the MSBA Family & Juvenile Law Section hosted a presentation on this new law..."

babalou · Dec 7, 2018

right

j_h_smith said:
I still don't know that the ERPO was filed by the sister. A police officer can act on his own from information received by the sister. The officer can then apply for the ERPO without anything more than a report from the sister that he owns a firearm and the actions of the man when he interacted with the police earlier in the day.

The sister may have started this circus, but we haven't actually heard that she swore out the ERPO on her brother. At least I don't believe so.

I think this is the "end around" portion to the law. If the police can file the ERPO, then what's to stop them from doing it every time they get a call about a civil disturbance?

As been reported in national news, a magistrate/judge will almost always sign off on these orders because they don't want to be involved in the story if that person did in fact cause a problem. So, it's almost automatic that these orders will be granted.

Scary thought...

to do it they would have asked if he had any guns... probably the first thing they asked when she filed the complaint. Yeah, I got into an argument with my brother.

Office: oh, ok. does he have guns?

Funny how that may be the immediate first thing he may have said to her.

j_h_smith · Dec 7, 2018

babalou said:
to do it they would have asked if he had any guns... probably the first thing they asked when she filed the complaint. Yeah, I got into an argument with my brother.

Office: oh, ok. does he have guns?

Funny how that may be the immediate first thing he may have said to her.

That may be the new procedure for all interactions with people involved in domestic or civil disputes.

It would still be nice to find out how many people got their firearms back after the hearing in 14 days?

Name Taken · Dec 7, 2018

j_h_smith said:
Nope, not true. A person can deny the ERPO and then the police must get a warrant. He was outside of his home when he was served the ERPO. He denied them access to his firearms. I'm pretty sure the law says that a warrant must then be served and an arrest will be made. They cannot enter into the house without a warrant for his arrest.

You are beyond wrong with your understanding of the laws of arrest.

If the police have probable cause he has access to firearms (he answered the door holding one) and they refuse to turn the gun over an arrest can be made without a warrant. To get said firearm which was inside the house you'd need lawful consent, a search warrant, or one of the few exemptions to the 4th amendment. If it was on his person or out in plain view the seizure of the firearm could legally take place without a search or arrest warrant. This is a non issue since he went back in to get said gun according to the police.

If he would have walked outside and refused to turn the gun over he would be arrested on the spot and likely a search warrant or consent from another legal residence would have been obtained. It is not a conversation to have since he went back to the gun and decided to engage the police with it.

The police would not have to leave the guy there with his guns to obtain a warrant to arrest him. The crime (failing to comply with the court order to surrender firearms) is committed in their presence and he can be arrested on scene without a warrant.

daNattyFatty · Dec 7, 2018

Not_an_outlaw said:
So you were there? You saw the whole thing?

I responded to j_h_smith’s question about the officers needing a warrant. My response is based on a combination of experience and what had been publicly released. I’ve explained literally the two only scenarios in which they could enter the residence without a warrant.

1) the officers felt that they had probable cause that a crime was being committed in their presence
2) to stop what they felt was an imminent threat of bodily harm or death

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babalou · Dec 7, 2018

Thanks for this

inkd said:
https://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/crime/bs-md-aa-shooting-20181105-story.html

Police had come to the house Sunday night to speak with Willis, a longtime resident of the neighborhood, said Michele Willis, who was on the scene Monday morning and identified herself as his niece. She attributed that visit by police to “family being family” but declined to elaborate.

She said one of her aunts requested the protective order to temporarily remove Willis’ guns.

sounds like it happened the way I assumed.

inkd · Dec 7, 2018

babalou said:
sounds like it happened the way I assumed.

Pretty much my thoughts as well. My only dispute would be the statement I made about responding LEO's telling the sister about the new ERPO law.

Man, I searched and searched and could not find any article that says that, anywhere.

I would have bet rent money that I had read it but I cannot find it so I will have to own that one as an incorrect statement by me.

Not_an_outlaw · Dec 7, 2018

Name Taken said:
You are beyond wrong with your understanding of the laws of arrest.

If the police have probable cause he has access to firearms (he answered the door holding one) and they refuse to turn the gun over an arrest can be made without a warrant. To get said firearm which was inside the house you'd need lawful consent, a search warrant, or one of the few exemptions to the 4th amendment. If it was on his person or out in plain view the seizure of the firearm could legally take place without a search or arrest warrant. This is a non issue since he went back in to get said gun according to the police.

If he would have walked outside and refused to turn the gun over he would be arrested on the spot and likely a search warrant or consent from another legal residence would have been obtained. It is not a conversation to have since he went back to the gun and decided to engage the police with it.

The police would not have to leave the guy there with his guns to obtain a warrant to arrest him. The crime (failing to comply with the court order to surrender firearms) is committed in their presence and he can be arrested on scene without a warrant.

Deleted. I see you were stating as hypotheticals versus facts.

IDFInfantry · Dec 7, 2018

Listen very carefully to the Q&A session at the bottom of this page.
They are planning to double down on this stupid bill and expand it's capabilities / who can file and under what conditions. Jesus Christ.
The Q&A session they posted is quite revealing. They are violating HIPPA Laws as well. I just can't understand how this law stands the way it's written and is being carried out.
Already we have one dead due to this law. All of his family except for the Aunt who filed the ERPO claims he liked to just speak his mind and that he wouldn't ever hurt anyone. He clearly had no history of violence or domestic abuse.
I thought the Minority Report was just a cool sci-fi movie. Apparently pre-crime is now a thing! Of course anyone can be guilty until proven innocent!
This law is simply beyond ridiculous!

https://www.msba.org/blog/gun-violence-and-extreme-risk-protective-orders-watch-listen/

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