New Build...14.5 with Pinned/Welded Compensator or AR Pistol

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  • DrewQ1

    Member
    Mar 9, 2016
    22
    I am debating on what I want for my 2nd build. I was set on building an Ar Pistol with a 10.5 barrel and adding a SBA3 Brace to it or KAK Shockwave but then I cam across threads of people taking a 14/14.5 barrel and pinning/welding a compensator or muzzle break. From what I read as long as the barrel is 16in or overall is 26in then it wont be considered a SBR with a collapsible stock and I now see Faxon has a pinned barrel if I choose not to do it myself or a smith do it.
    Has anyone built both of these or have both and what do you think or feel about it. Should I just stick with an at pistol or build the 14.5 pinned rifle.

    Also I have seen to articles saying the brace can be shouldered by BAFTE but then supposedly a recent search of a thread revising the original open letter saying it cant. Is there any clarity on it this?

    Thanks for any info
     

    Ranchero50

    Ultimate Member
    Dec 15, 2012
    5,411
    Hagerstown MD
    The problem with a carbine receiver is it needs a heavy barrel to be legal. I build a pistol with a 16" government profile barrel cut down to 10.5 and it feels much more ergonomic than my 16" heavy barrel carbine.
     

    DrewQ1

    Member
    Mar 9, 2016
    22
    I thought if you build a Ar Pistol you don't need it to be an HBAR. Are there any 10.5in HBARs out there?
     

    jrumann59

    DILLIGAF
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 17, 2011
    14,024
    I am debating on what I want for my 2nd build. I was set on building an Ar Pistol with a 10.5 barrel and adding a SBA3 Brace to it or KAK Shockwave but then I cam across threads of people taking a 14/14.5 barrel and pinning/welding a compensator or muzzle break. From what I read as long as the barrel is 16in or overall is 26in then it wont be considered a SBR with a collapsible stock and I now see Faxon has a pinned barrel if I choose not to do it myself or a smith do it.
    Has anyone built both of these or have both and what do you think or feel about it. Should I just stick with an at pistol or build the 14.5 pinned rifle.

    Also I have seen to articles saying the brace can be shouldered by BAFTE but then supposedly a recent search of a thread revising the original open letter saying it cant. Is there any clarity on it this?

    Thanks for any info

    IIRC the braces can be shouldered but inadvertently. So they put out ambiguous letter so people would not in essence make a full time SBR with a brace.
     

    lazarus

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 23, 2015
    13,678
    No. FSA 2013 applies to rifles.

    Correct. But since it applies, the rifle has to be at least 29” overall length for Maryland. That includes SBRs.

    A 14.5” pinned to >16” is going to be over 29” though.
     

    jrumann59

    DILLIGAF
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 17, 2011
    14,024
    Mr. Chad is working on pinning my as we speak 13.7 barrel pinned to 17", Ballistics Advantage Barrel seems shorter because my muzzle device measures 4.5 inches tip to tail but my barrel seems to be closer to 17 inches as opposed to 17.7
     

    Biggfoot44

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 2, 2009
    32,877
    A few years ago 14.7 with pinned muzzle device to reach 16in was quite common.

    No real justification for them , but I've had a hankering for an 11.5in with long pinned device to make 16in .
     

    Caeb75

    Full fledged member
    Sep 19, 2007
    1,054
    Aberdeen
    Correct. But since it applies, the rifle has to be at least 29” overall length for Maryland. That includes SBRs.

    A 14.5” pinned to >16” is going to be over 29” though.

    The man asked about a pistol with a 10 inch barrel and I answered the question. In your scenario, a rifle with a 14.5"barrel with a pinned and welded flash hider would need to be a heavy barrel because it is a rifle.
     

    Hawkeye

    The Leatherstocking
    Jan 29, 2009
    3,971
    From what I read as long as the barrel is 16in or overall is 26in then it wont be considered a SBR with a collapsible stock

    I thought if you build a Ar Pistol you don't need it to be an HBAR. Are there any 10.5in HBARs out there?

    Forgive me if I misinterpret what you are saying here, but from these two statements it sounds like you might not have a clear understanding of the legal definitions of "pistol" and "rifle" when it comes to ARs, and you need to be very careful, because this is something that if you do it wrong will cost you a lot of money, prison time, and your 2A rights for the rest of your life.

    In short: if you put a stock on an AR, then it is a rifle, period. It doesn't matter the length of the barrel or the OAL of the whole thing. Stock = Rifle.

    If you have a stock and a barrel that is shorter than 16", then you have an SBR. This is why people do the 14.5" barrels with a pinned compensator, because that brings the length of the barrel up to over 16" so it's no longer an SBR at that point. If you do this in MD, you will need a heavy barrel.

    If you build a pistol, you do not need a heavy barrel, but you can not put a stock on it.
     

    lazarus

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 23, 2015
    13,678
    The man asked about a pistol with a 10 inch barrel and I answered the question. In your scenario, a rifle with a 14.5"barrel with a pinned and welded flash hider would need to be a heavy barrel because it is a rifle.

    I know, but he had earlier mentioned 26” OAL, which is the minimum length for an SBR per ATF. However in FSA2013 Maryland has a strict limit of 29” for OAL for all centerfire rifles. SBRs and regular rifles both.

    Though if you built an SBR, tax stamped first and the whole 9-yards, you don’t need a heavy barrel. MD has a very odd set of laws where a short barrel rifle is treated as a handgun...EXCEPT the overall length limitations.

    That also means for transportation and such forth MD considers an SBR (or SBS) as a handgun.
     

    Hawkeye

    The Leatherstocking
    Jan 29, 2009
    3,971
    I know, but he had earlier mentioned 26” OAL, which is the minimum length for an SBR per ATF.

    No, there is no minimum length for an SBR. You could have an SBR with an OAL of 10" if you could build it.

    The 26" rule is that any rifle that has an OAL of less than 26" is an SBR, no matter what the barrel length is.
     

    lazarus

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 23, 2015
    13,678
    No, there is no minimum length for an SBR. You could have an SBR with an OAL of 10" if you could build it.

    The 26" rule is that any rifle that has an OAL of less than 26" is an SBR, no matter what the barrel length is.

    Doh. You are right. My bad.

    But the 29” MD still applies to anything with rifle (and shotgun?) in its name that uses a centerfire.
     

    Biggfoot44

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 2, 2009
    32,877
    The 26in number also comes into play if you wish to have a front vertical handgrip on a ( pistol- like item that goes bang ) , under Federal .

    Under Federal , longer than 26in OAL removes ( thing that goes bang) from being a Pistol , regardless of bbl length . If such item does NOT have a stock , it is not a Rifle . Such an item is an " Other " under Federal law.

    Over 26in OAL , an Other may have a front grip. Under 26in , it would be " pistol with front grip" , which is currently considered an AOW , requiring the NFA process.
     

    DrewQ1

    Member
    Mar 9, 2016
    22
    Forgive me if I misinterpret what you are saying here, but from these two statements it sounds like you might not have a clear understanding of the legal definitions of "pistol" and "rifle" when it comes to ARs, and you need to be very careful, because this is something that if you do it wrong will cost you a lot of money, prison time, and your 2A rights for the rest of your life.

    In short: if you put a stock on an AR, then it is a rifle, period. It doesn't matter the length of the barrel or the OAL of the whole thing. Stock = Rifle.

    If you have a stock and a barrel that is shorter than 16", then you have an SBR. This is why people do the 14.5" barrels with a pinned compensator, because that brings the length of the barrel up to over 16" so it's no longer an SBR at that point. If you do this in MD, you will need a heavy barrel.

    If you build a pistol, you do not need a heavy barrel, but you can not put a stock on it.

    You lost me right here. If I put a stock on a Ar then it is a rifle, but if I build a pistol I can put a stock on it....I thought its considered a pistol if you put a brace on it that's why you can have a 7in, 10.5in, 14.5in barrels etc. I thought it was putting on a brace or a stock that determines it being a pistol or a SBR or rifle. And if it is a rifle then you have to make it an HBAR..now that is something I do understand in regards to a HBAR for MD.
     

    Hawkeye

    The Leatherstocking
    Jan 29, 2009
    3,971
    You lost me right here.

    Sorry, I may not have worded that post all that well. This stuff can be massively confusing and it's hard to explain clearly over the internet. :)

    If I put a stock on a Ar then it is a rifle,

    Yes. This is the "golden rule" and the most important thing to remember.

    but if I build a pistol I can put a stock on it

    You *can* put a stock on a pistol, but doing so legally turns it in to a rifle.

    If the pistol started out with a 16" or greater barrel and you put a stock on it, you now have a "normal" rifle. If the pistol started out with a barrel shorter than 16", you now have an SBR. You CAN NOT make an SBR legally until you file the proper paperwork with ATF and pay the $200 tax.

    ....I thought its considered a pistol if you put a brace on it

    If it starts out as a pistol and you put a brace on it, it remains a pistol. Yes. (This is because ATF's legal definition of a "rifle" involves "being designed to be fired from the shoulder" which means having a stock. A brace is not a stock and is not designed to be shouldered, thus putting one on a pistol does not make the pistol to be "designed to be fired from the shoulder" and thus not a rifle.)

    that's why you can have a 7in, 10.5in, 14.5in barrels etc.

    Yes. You can have any length barrel on a pistol, and you can put a brace on it and be fine. If I have an AR pistol with a 10.5" barrel, and I put a brace on it, I can keep it just like it is and be totally legal.

    I thought it was putting on a brace or a stock that determines it being a pistol or a SBR or rifle.

    Really it's just the stock part. Like I said above, parts of the legal definition of "pistol" vs "rifle" are that a pistol is "designed to be fired while held with one hand" while a rifle is "designed to be fired from the shoulder." (There is a LOT of other stuff, but that's the simple version of the pertinent part for this discussion.)

    A pistol starts out as being designed to be fired while held in one hand. A brace is designed to allow you to stabilize a pistol while holding it in one hand, so putting one on a pistol doesn't change that. A stock is designed to be put against your shoulder, so putting one on a pistol "redesigns" the pistol to be fired from the shoulder, thus making it in to a rifle.

    And if it is a rifle then you have to make it an HBAR..now that is something I do understand in regards to a HBAR for MD.

    An SBR doesn't have to be an HBAR. Idiotic, but true.

    So....


    For the build you were talking about, if you want a stock, you'll need a 16" or greater HBAR. If you're ok with running a brace, you can have any length barrel and it doesn't need to be HBAR because it will be a pistol.


    Hope that helps.
     

    Msteers

    Member
    May 26, 2017
    63
    My 11.5" build puts me at 26.1" OAL. Measured end of muzzle of barrel, to end of
    buffer tube.

    I personally have a had two ATF personnel respond to my emails, both have verified that if the brace is indeed collapsible(SB PDW, SBA3), then the measurement is taken with the brace fully extended.
     

    lazarus

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 23, 2015
    13,678
    My 11.5" build puts me at 26.1" OAL. Measured end of muzzle of barrel, to end of
    buffer tube.

    I personally have a had two ATF personnel respond to my emails, both have verified that if the brace is indeed collapsible(SB PDW, SBA3), then the measurement is taken with the brace fully extended.

    In regard to making it an “other” for a Vertical grip? That sounds right.
     

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