Does speed matter?

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  • Biggfoot44

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 2, 2009
    32,884
    A handful of times it did come up at trials, but usually can be overcome by the lawyer/ expert witness.

    More frequently comes into play in influencing the prosecutor in deciding wether to bring charges. ( Lumping together both ammo with sensational branding and handloads )
     

    cstone

    Active Member
    Dec 12, 2018
    842
    Baltimore, MD
    Gabby Giffords and James Brady are both well known head shots who survived. And face shots are head shots...unless you suffer from some form of body mutation.

    I think it is not worth arguing about shot placement as the primary factor in lethality. Just look at how livestock are killed, whether it is by captive bolt or firearm, the instrument is placed on the skull to stun the animal prior to the throat being slit to cut blood flow to the brain. Nothing yet has been found to be more efficient and humane.

    Like just about every caliber conversation this one has just about covered the available data and posted most of the various opinions out there. I stand by my statement, the only gun that counts is the one you brought. Make it something you shoot well.
     

    smokey

    2A TEACHER
    Jan 31, 2008
    31,412

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    Blaster229

    God loves you, I don't.
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 14, 2010
    46,410
    Glen Burnie
    Gabby Giffords and James Brady are both well known head shots who survived. And face shots are head shots...unless you suffer from some form of body mutation.

    Face shots are just "head shots" simply because the face is on the head.
    A shot to the side of the jaw, going through the cheek and mouth is not a true head shot. A shot in between the eyes is a real "head shot" meant to stop the world as that threat knows it. :thumbsup:
     

    smokey

    2A TEACHER
    Jan 31, 2008
    31,412
    Face shots are just "head shots" simply because the face is on the head.
    A shot to the side of the jaw, going through the cheek and mouth is not a true head shot. A shot in between the eyes is a real "head shot" meant to stop the world as that threat knows it. :thumbsup:

    Just curious about your training. How did the training you guys get manage where to place shots? Was it similar to LEO/civilian training that just has you hit center mass, or did they go into tbox shots due to the specific environmental concerns you could be dealing with?
     

    outrider58

    Eats Bacon Raw
    MDS Supporter
    Jul 29, 2014
    49,818
    Just curious about your training. How did the training you guys get manage where to place shots? Was it similar to LEO/civilian training that just has you hit center mass, or did they go into tbox shots due to the specific environmental concerns you could be dealing with?

    Kind of surprising. That's old SWAT type sniper training. They used to refer to that spot as he "apricot" because of its size and shape. It is the least resistant and frontal path to the medulla oblongata. Part of the brain stem that controls reflex. Kill it, and you kill all reflex. Renders the trigger finger inoperable in a slit second.
     

    Blaster229

    God loves you, I don't.
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 14, 2010
    46,410
    Glen Burnie
    Just curious about your training. How did the training you guys get manage where to place shots? Was it similar to LEO/civilian training that just has you hit center mass, or did they go into tbox shots due to the specific environmental concerns you could be dealing with?

    We did both. Our quarterly quals had a smidgen of "2 to the chest, 1 to the head" portion.
    Center mass is the rule of the day for self defense shooting of course. However, sometimes you can't.
    A lot of our SIMS training were in fuselage simulators. A lot of shots you had to take to the head because you could be standing up and the threat sitting down behind/between sitting passengers. You find yourself taking head shots because center mass shots are impossible. And vise versa. You might be sitting down, shooting at a standing up threat with someone sitting in front of you and maybe a portion of their shoulder/body blocks center mass. So you go for the grape.

    Force on force SIMS you end up taking head shots because you and the threat in front of you just keep shooting each other in the hands because you both are pressed out aiming center mass at the same time. I simply adjusted and aimed higher. Most end up doing that out of default because you want to make a lethal shot.

    There is a lot of leeway from office to office on what we trained shooting-wise. Plenty of imagination went into range training days and learning to "shoot small".

    I am not gong to say if there is a specific training curriculum addressing/requiring certain types of shots. Suffice it to say you just need to be able to land rounds anywhere.
     

    Blaster229

    God loves you, I don't.
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 14, 2010
    46,410
    Glen Burnie
    Kind of surprising. That's old SWAT type sniper training. They used to refer to that spot as he "apricot" because of its size and shape. It is the least resistant and frontal path to the medulla oblongata. Part of the brain stem that controls reflex. Kill it, and you kill all reflex. Renders the trigger finger inoperable in a slit second.

    It doesn't even have to contact the oblongata. A pistol round may not even make it down back into the head actually. A rifle round will of course. You just have to get it within the head cavity and that's good enough to disrupt "operations" so to speak.
     

    smokey

    2A TEACHER
    Jan 31, 2008
    31,412
    We did both. Our quarterly quals had a smidgen of "2 to the chest, 1 to the head" portion.
    Center mass is the rule of the day for self defense shooting of course. However, sometimes you can't.
    A lot of our SIMS training were in fuselage simulators. A lot of shots you had to take to the head because you could be standing up and the threat sitting down behind/between sitting passengers. You find yourself taking head shots because center mass shots are impossible. And vise versa. You might be sitting down, shooting at a standing up threat with someone sitting in front of you and maybe a portion of their shoulder/body blocks center mass. So you go for the grape.

    Force on force SIMS you end up taking head shots because you and the threat in front of you just keep shooting each other in the hands because you both are pressed out aiming center mass at the same time. I simply adjusted and aimed higher. Most end up doing that out of default because you want to make a lethal shot.

    There is a lot of leeway from office to office on what we trained shooting-wise. Plenty of imagination went into range training days and learning to "shoot small".

    I am not gong to say if there is a specific training curriculum addressing/requiring certain types of shots. Suffice it to say you just need to be able to land rounds anywhere.
    Cool, thanks for the info. Given the reputation of the quality of training your guys get, I figured it'd be something like that. The round counts and training hours/year I've heard quoted are pretty amazing.
    I figure your line of work can be fairly accurately described as leading the pack in handgun utilization against armed threats.
     

    cstone

    Active Member
    Dec 12, 2018
    842
    Baltimore, MD
    Face shots are just "head shots" simply because the face is on the head.
    A shot to the side of the jaw, going through the cheek and mouth is not a true head shot. A shot in between the eyes is a real "head shot" meant to stop the world as that threat knows it. :thumbsup:

    But a shot between the eyes is both a face shot as well as a head shot. I'm fairly certain no one has ever asked someone to turn left or right just so they can get a frontal shot unless they are taking booking photos. :D

    I'm sure most here are familiar with the investigation into the number of headshots taken by Marines in Fallujah after they began regular use of ACOGs. When the best center of mass target you are offered is a head, and you have the ability to hit it, of course that is what you will shoot at. Heck, two to the body and one to the head has been in the Practical Pistol Course for decades. That the first two are to the big target and the third is to the little target says a lot about the goal in defensive shooting. Shoot to stop, and if you can stop without shooting, so much the better.

    I do recall the phrase "shooting in a sea of heads." If you have ever sat in the middle or back of a commercial aircraft, you will see exactly what the phrase means.

    Shoot fast enough to hit but not so fast that you miss. Real world shooting isn't done on a PACT timer.
     

    Blacksmith101

    Grumpy Old Man
    Jun 22, 2012
    22,162

    smokey

    2A TEACHER
    Jan 31, 2008
    31,412

    yup. I like the drill if the purpose is to force someone to both hit quick center mass shots and also small precise shots on the same target for a marksmanship challenge under pressure. In that form, it allows the shooter and trainer to assess the speed each type of shooting takes and look for ways to speed up accuracy. I don't like it as just wrote "two to the chest, one to the head" as a reaction you should always do to a threat. Like the article states, the original intent was a story about overcoming a problem under stress. You need to be aware that hitting to center mass may not be a solution due to a vest, presentation, or any number of other factors. In my mind the value is focusing on constantly assessing the efficacy of your shots and making a choice to change where you're placing shots if you need to.

    In this mindset, it can be two to the chest, one to the head...but it can also be 5 to the chest, 1 to the pelvis, 1 to the head...or any other type of adaptation to put down the threat. It's just to force you to think about actually stopping the threat rather than thinking dumping to center mass is always best...which is difficult to do without lots of experience under stress.

    Aaron cowan has a cool drill like that in which 3d cardboard targets are taped to a balloon which is taped to a stick holding them up. The balloon may be in the head of the target, chest, or there may be two. As a shooter, you need to assess while you shoot and it gives you a chance to see when the target drops while following it to the ground. I think that's much more in-line with the original intent of the failure drill than just "two to the chest, one to the head".
     

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