Is Saiga 12 a regulated firearm (AK47)?

helloworld22 · Aug 5, 2010

Would like to know if it's regulated as the title says.

Inigoes · Aug 5, 2010

Depends on the dealer. :sad20:

jaywade · Aug 5, 2010

Inigoes said:
Depends on the dealer.

well and maybe the model

if it has a regular rife stock maybe/maybe not...if it has the pistol grip then most are going to call it regulated every time

00-Guy · Aug 5, 2010

The State Police believe that anything built on an AK receiver is regulated. They believe that the Saiga is built on an AK receiver. So it is regulated. A call to the State Police will clear it up.

Markp · Aug 6, 2010

00-Guy said:
The State Police believe that anything built on an AK receiver is regulated. They believe that the Saiga is built on an AK receiver. So it is regulated. A call to the State Police will clear it up.

The state police, if they claim the Saiga 12 as regulated, would be wrong. The Siaga 12 is a shotgun and NOT listed in 5-101. That won't prevent them from telling you that it's regulated though, they often have misclassified weapons. The state may not like it, but WORDS MEAN THINGS!

(p) Regulated firearm.- "Regulated firearm" means:
(2) a firearm that is any of the following specific assault weapons or their copies, regardless of which company produced and manufactured that assault weapon:
(ii) AK-47 in all forms;
(xxvii) Avtomat Kalashnikov semiautomatic rifle in any format;

So is the Saiga-12 an AK-47?

No, the Saiga-12 is a not an AK-47, all AK-47's fire the 7.62x39 rifle rounds. The Saiga-12 fires 12 gauge shotgun rounds.

So is the Saiga-12 an Avtomat Kalashnikov semiautomatic rifle?

No, the Saiga-12 is a shotgun, not a rifle.

Thus Saiga-12 = Not Regulated

Bottom line, most FFL's in the state won't transfer them unregulated, but some will. I encourage you to read 5-101 yourself and remember a rifle is NOT a shotgun, and a shotgun is NOT a rifle. A pistol grip has NOTHING to do with being regulated, they cannot add weapons based on characteristics, period.

Mark

Ab_Normal · Aug 6, 2010

Markp said:
, they cannot add weapons based on characteristics, period.

Mark

We'll have to wait and see. That letter that went around that was going to classify firearms on their internal function and not their appearance has me thinking the MSP wants to have their cake and eat it too. :mad54:

rob-cubed · Aug 6, 2010

If you ask the MSP, they'll say it's regulated. In fact I've heard from a couple FFLs that the MSP has gone out of their way to "clarify" this.

However, there are a *very* small handful of FFLs who disagree and will transfer an S-12 unregulated. The first part of MD state code refers to an "AK-47 in all forms" which is a milled receiver rifle that shoots a 7.62x39 round. Since everyone gets AK-47 and AKM confused, the "all forms" could reasonably be extended to other 7.62 variants.

The second mention is "Avtomat Kalashnikov semiautomatic rifle in any format". Which covers AK-74, variants that shoot .223, etc. But the Saiga-12 is not a rifle, and while is clearly based on the Kalashnikov action it does not have any interchangeable parts.

FWIW, I did regulated paperwork on mine but at least one of our industry partners will xfer as a long gun.

ViperRy · Aug 6, 2010

In Marylandistan, if the GSG5 is regulated you bet your ass an S12 will be :rolleyes:

. Everyone I've known including myself has had to file pistol paperwork for them. There may be some dealers that don't though. I see it as just another semi auto shottie. Just because it looks scary to the sheeple doesn't mean it should be regulated.

HardHatMan · Aug 6, 2010

Markp said:
So is the Saiga-12 an AK-47?

No, the Saiga-12 is a not an AK-47, all AK-47's fire the 7.62x39 rifle rounds. The Saiga-12 fires 12 gauge shotgun rounds.

5.45x39mm

DGI · Aug 6, 2010

i visited a shop in PA about 30 min. from my house in Maryland. Showed them my Maryland driver's liscence and they were ready to sell me a Colt AR-15 without paper work. Didnt even wanna hear about shipping it to my FFL.

If MSP says its regulated... i'll be more than happy to fill out the necessary paper work

Markp · Aug 6, 2010

HardHatMan said:
5.45x39mm

Ya, smart ass :lol2:

, that's an AK-74.... Different rifle. Show me an AK-47 in 5.45x39, it's not, it's an AK-74 derivative.

boatbod · Aug 6, 2010

ViperRy said:
In Marylandistan, if the GSG5 is regulated you bet your ass an S12 will be . Everyone I've known including myself has had to file pistol paperwork for them. There may be some dealers that don't though. I see it as just another semi auto shottie. Just because it looks scary to the sheeple doesn't mean it should be regulated.

Likewise.

Its a half-assed interpretation of a stupid rule, but most of our dealers are quite attached to their licenses, so they play my MSP's rules.

h2u · Aug 6, 2010

Markp said:
Ya, smart ass , that's an AK-74.... Different rifle. Show me an AK-47 in 5.45x39, it's not, it's an AK-74 derivative.

What's the Yugo M-95 classified as?

Markp · Aug 6, 2010

h2u said:
What's the Yugo M-95 classified as?

(xxvii) Avtomat Kalashnikov semiautomatic rifle in any format;

Basically it doesn't matter, if it is a rifle and a AK action, it's regulated. If it's an AK action pistol, it's regulated. The only AK action that is NOT regulated is an AK action shotgun. They really have it covered well, had the Saiga shotgun existed at that time, you know they would have banned it along with the Mossberg 500 bullpup, the AA-12, and street sweeper. Too bad, sooo sad that they don't think before they write these stupid laws. This is the problem... build an idiot-proof law and they'll build a better idiot.

Mark

h2u · Aug 6, 2010

Meh - I don't have any idea what you guys see in those Saiga-12's anyway....

Russian junk :sad20:

Buy American!

rob-cubed · Aug 7, 2010

h2u said:
Meh - I don't have any idea what you guys see in those Saiga-12's anyway....

Russian junk
Buy American!

Shoot one and you'll understand... :party29:

They don't make good skeet/field guns but are a heck of a lot of fun otherwise!

Jimbob2.0 · Aug 7, 2010

h2u said:
Meh - I don't have any idea what you guys see in those Saiga-12's anyway....

Russian junk
Buy American!

Shoot one, I buy plenty of American (gets harder and harder) but sometimes you have to realize innovation!

They are neat guns, and there is nothing like them. THey make my Mossberg 930 SPX seem boring (not sure its american made anymore).

Not criticizing american guns, there are many fine models. But who else makes a 20rd, rapid cycling, nuts reliable semi shotgun that is not classified as a destructive weopon?

zoostation · Aug 7, 2010

I have to mention that despite Gansler's opinion coming out months ago, an opinion issued at Sheridan's own request concerning the GSG-5, that cosmetic similarity alone does NOT make a weapon regulated, I have yet to hear about MSP getting back to the dealers and telling them it's okay to transfer one on a 4473. If any of our resident dealers have heard different please feel free to chime in.

http://www.oag.state.md.us/Opinions/2010/95oag101.pdf

C. Summary
While the regulated firearms law does not define “copy,” the
statutory definition of “firearm” and the specifications in the list of
named assault weapons both suggest that a weapon must have more
than a cosmetic similarity to be a “copy.” Moreover, in enacting and
amending the law regarding “assault weapons,” the General
Assembly has rejected attempts to define “assault weapons”
broadly, based on general characteristics or a reference to the more
inclusive federal definition. Instead, it has chosen to establish a list
of specific weapons, and in some cases, specific calibers.
Interpreting “copy” to include any firearm that merely looked like
one of the enumerated firearms would run contrary to the choices
made by the Legislature.
As the proponents of the original 1989 legislation indicated
when they crafted the amendments to achieve its passage, the
purpose of listing specific weapons and their “copies” was to
distinguish “anti-personnel” assault weapons from firearms used by
hunters and sportsmen that might fall within a more generic
definition. Consistent with the General Assembly’s apparent intent
to create a definition with an eye toward the function of the weapon,
a “copy” would include a firearm whose internal components and
function, necessary to the operation of the firearm, are similar to
those of one of the specifically enumerated assault weapons. As the
agency charged with administering the regulated firearms law, the
Department of State Police must make that assessment.

III
Conclusion
For the reasons set forth above, it is our opinion that the
reference to “copies” in PS §5-101(p)(2) does not extend the
regulated firearms law to weapons that bear a mere cosmetic
similarity to a listed weapon. Rather, in order for a firearm to be
considered a copy of a listed assault weapon, and therefore governed
by the regulated firearms law, there must be a similarity between the
internal components and function of the firearm in question and
those of one of the listed weapons. A determination as to whether
Gen. 101] 109
a particular firearm bears such similarity is a factual question
entrusted in the first instance to the Department of State Police.
Douglas F. Gansler
Attorney General
Mark H. Bowen
Assistant Attorney General
Robert N. McDonald
Chief Counsel
Opinions and Advice

fivepointstar · Aug 7, 2010

h2u said:
Meh - I don't have any idea what you guys see in those Saiga-12's anyway....

Russian junk
Buy American!

rob-cubed said:
Shoot one and you'll understand...

They don't make good skeet/field guns but are a heck of a lot of fun otherwise!

Jimbob2.0 said:
Shoot one, I buy plenty of American (gets harder and harder) but sometimes you have to realize innovation!

They are neat guns, and there is nothing like them. THey make my Mossberg 930 SPX seem boring (not sure its american made anymore).

Not criticizing american guns, there are many fine models. But who else makes a 20rd, rapid cycling, nuts reliable semi shotgun that is not classified as a destructive weopon?

This almost sounds like a

AR vs AK debate

Markp · Aug 7, 2010

Jimbob2.0 said:
Not criticizing American guns, there are many fine models. But who else makes a 20rd, rapid cycling, nuts reliable semi shotgun that is not classified as a destructive weapon?

Precisely, make the AA-12 legal for us mere mortals to own and I'll give up my Saiga-12. The only other gun I have with nearly the same portability and same firepower is my AR in .50 Beowulf, and that's not nearly as inexpensive to shoot as the Saiga-12.

There is little not to like about the Saiga-12, call it "junk" if you want, but how are you defining "junk". I don't call an extremely reliable and capable gun like the Saiga-12 junk, perhaps it's unrefined, crude, raw, or any other word that captures its lack of sophistication, but it is not junk.

Mark

Is Saiga 12 a regulated firearm (AK47)?

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