FOPA '86's prohibiton of a firearms registry VS Maryland State Police practices

Buried within the thread on HB1261 is a little side conversation that occurred as people began wondering what MSP knew that they had. Some folks began submitting Public Information Act requests to find out what the MSP licensing division had in their database as far as regulated firearms associated with their names. What was discovered was that:

1. MSP apparently keeps all of these records going back to the time when they became the contact for background checks for regulated firearms
2. MSP's records sometimes contain an entry for a firearm with no manufacturer, model, caliber, serial number, or other distinguishing details.
3. MSP's records will still show a regulated firearm associated with your name after you have sold it

My own experience with submitting a PIA request and reviewing the records has given me some concern. For one, the fact that MSP are maintaining these records at all is chilling. I bought my first regulated firearm in 2012. I bought my last one this year. The packet containing the records for my request contained every regulated firearm from #1 to the most recent one.

I've only sold a few regulated firearms but they were still present in my packet. I realize that the records just show that a background check was performed by MSP when the FFL started the transfer process. However, if I were ever to have an ERPO/Red Flag order served against me, I imagine the officers would be in possession of the records from MSP and demanding that I produce for them every firearm listed.

Lastly, as noted by Sirex in the HB1261 thread, how does this practice by MSP square against this portion of the Firearms Owners Protection Act of 1986 (FOPA):

No such rule or regulation prescribed after the date of the enactment of the Firearms Owners’ Protection Act may require that records required to be maintained under this chapter or any portion of the contents of such records, be recorded at or transferred to a facility owned, managed, or controlled by the United States or any State or any political subdivision thereof, nor that any system of registration of firearms, firearms owners, or firearms transactions or dispositions be established. Nothing in this section expands or restricts the Secretary’s [1] authority to inquire into the disposition of any firearm in the course of a criminal investigation.

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearm_Owners_Protection_Act#Registry_prohibition
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/926

For those interested in performing their own Public Information Act requests, you can start here:

https://mdsp.maryland.gov/Pages/PublicInformationRequest.aspx

Select "Information​ maintained by the Maryland State Police Licensing Division" for the first question.
Fill in your contact info.
For the last section, "Please provide as much information as possible so your request may be fulfilled quickly and accurately." you can simply write:

I would like a copy of any firearms that are officially registered with the Maryland State Police under my name, for my own personal records.

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Previous post regarding FOPA and registries:
https://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=111311

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I guess, in short, FOPA only modified the existing GCA and only applies to the Federal government. States are not bound by FOPA if they are otherwise not acting on behalf of the AG of the United States.

I think that this is one of the biggest frauds perpetrated on gun owners in 50 years.

It stops the transfer of records . It stops one particular set of agencies from from creating a registry. That's it.

States can create a registry, perfectly legally.

The law does not and never did do what people claimed.

This could really turn into a large cluster you know what if this could be declared a class action lawsuit against MSP...

This has been covered before, it’s Federal law not state. Many states have a registry of firearms and it hasn’t been found to be unconstitutional yet.
(Doesn’t mean I agree with it, it shouldn’t be allowed at the Federal, State, or local level in any way)


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rbird7282 said:

This has been covered before, it’s Federal law not state. Many states have a registry of firearms and it hasn’t been found to be unconstitutional yet.
(Doesn’t mean I agree with it, it shouldn’t be allowed at the Federal, State, or local level in any way)

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Sorry, I don't mean to bring up topics that have been covered before. I found some older threads where this is discussed. I'll add links to them in the OP.

I like your thinking OP. Reminds me ... as a kid I read somewhere "Shall not be Infringed" ....

ziptiespec said:

Sorry, I don't mean to bring up topics that have been covered before. I found some older threads where this is discussed. I'll add links to them in the OP.

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No worries, I didn’t mean to sound like an ass. Not my intent.


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ziptiespec said:

Buried within the thread on HB1261 is a little side conversation that occurred as people began wondering what MSP knew that they had. Some folks began submitting Public Information Act requests to find out what the MSP licensing division had in their database as far as regulated firearms associated with their names. What was discovered was that:

1. MSP apparently keeps all of these records going back to the time when they became the contact for background checks for regulated firearms
2. MSP's records sometimes contain an entry for a firearm with no manufacturer, model, caliber, serial number, or other distinguishing details.
3. MSP's records will still show a regulated firearm associated with your name after you have sold it

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It is a database of transfers, not what any one individual owns, and was originally paper (the 77Rs) and was mandated by state law that MSP keep track of all regulated transfers.

Once you sell a firearm, the fact that the item was transferred to you does NOT go away, but a new record of a transfer to the new person (provided it was done in Maryland on a 77R) is added.

ziptiespec said:

My own experience with submitting a PIA request and reviewing the records has given me some concern. For one, the fact that MSP are maintaining these records at all is chilling. I bought my first regulated firearm in 2012. I bought my last one this year. The packet containing the records for my request contained every regulated firearm from #1 to the most recent one.

I've only sold a few regulated firearms but they were still present in my packet. I realize that the records just show that a background check was performed by MSP when the FFL started the transfer process. However, if I were ever to have an ERPO/Red Flag order served against me, I imagine the officers would be in possession of the records from MSP and demanding that I produce for them every firearm listed.

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They would ask you about them, yes, but a simple refer for them to check their system further would show transfers to another individual if that transfer was done in Maryland.

ziptiespec said:

Lastly, as noted by Sirex in the HB1261 thread, how does this practice by MSP square against this portion of the Firearms Owners Protection Act of 1986 (FOPA):



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearm_Owners_Protection_Act#Registry_prohibition
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/926

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This is Federal law and applies directly to the DOJ, and has no mention of applying to the individual states, thus several states have various types of firearms databases.

ziptiespec said:

For those interested in performing their own Public Information Act requests, you can start here:

https://mdsp.maryland.gov/Pages/PublicInformationRequest.aspx

Select "Information​ maintained by the Maryland State Police Licensing Division" for the first question.
Fill in your contact info.
For the last section, "Please provide as much information as possible so your request may be fulfilled quickly and accurately." you can simply write:

I would like a copy of any firearms that are officially registered with the Maryland State Police under my name, for my own personal records.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Previous post regarding FOPA and registries:
https://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=111311

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

I guess, in short, FOPA only modified the existing GCA and only applies to the Federal government. States are not bound by FOPA if they are otherwise not acting on behalf of the AG of the United States.

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The BATFE also keeps a database of transfer just like the state. When we run ATF gun traces we have to sometimes track the firearm back thru those records to find owners or determine who it went to after a private sale. This is only done if the firearm pops up due to criminal activities. We use MGUN in the same manner. As long as the person has a record of sale it's not an issue. Everyone is told MGUN isn't the definitive database.

Blackstar65 said:

The BATFE also keeps a database of transfer just like the state. When we run ATF gun traces we have to sometimes track the firearm back thru those records to find owners or determine who it went to after a private sale. This is only done if the firearm pops up due to criminal activities. We use MGUN in the same manner. As long as the person has a record of sale it's not an issue. Everyone is told MGUN isn't the definitive database.

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Ummmm, last I checked, ATF still contacts the manufacturer to start a trace, then the distributor, and then the dealer for the first sale. They do NOT have a database, since 4473s are NOT sent to the ATF unless an FFL goes out of business.

OP Thanks for this thread. I believe this could be a real problem in the future as well unless the state admits it is a database of 77rs and not updated to show ownership. One issue I have always had is when you transfer through FFLs. I have done this with many Md. shops through the years with no official receipt. Many of these are no longer in business and while I know the FFL had a record of possession I dont know if the log is correct. To make matters worse I have paperwork from decades showing purchase and background approval for firearms that have long been sold but the writing is unreadable due to the multi-copy, poorly designed forms. I don't see how the system can be anything more than a "guess" at what a person currently owns. OP I appreciate you bringing this up and while I would like to submit the PIA request I feel it would just piss me off....having purchased my first regulated firearm in the 70's.

ironpony said:

I like your thinking OP. Reminds me ... as a kid I read somewhere "Shall not be Infringed" ....

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Give me a good argument why a registry that is free is an infringement. It isn’t.

Now if it were used for things like confiscating guns and so forth, that is an infringement. I am against any kind of a registry because of historically how they’ve been misused in other countries combined with A-hat uses like the information leaking publicly or turned over in a FOIA request that never should have been granted (like to a news organization).

But the government knowing about something on its face isn’t infringing anything related to guns. Maybe you could make an argument under the 14th that it violates your privacy. Maybe.

jr88 said:

OP Thanks for this thread. I believe this could be a real problem in the future as well unless the state admits it is a database of 77rs and not updated to show ownership. One issue I have always had is when you transfer through FFLs. I have done this with many Md. shops through the years with no official receipt. Many of these are no longer in business and while I know the FFL had a record of possession I dont know if the log is correct. To make matters worse I have paperwork from decades showing purchase and background approval for firearms that have long been sold but the writing is unreadable due to the multi-copy, poorly designed forms. I don't see how the system can be anything more than a "guess" at what a person currently owns. OP I appreciate you bringing this up and while I would like to submit the PIA request I feel it would just piss me off....having purchased my first regulated firearm in the 70's.

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They have admitted this, at least twice, in testimony in Annapolis during bill hearings.

lazarus said:

Give me a good argument why a registry that is free is an infringement. It isn’t.

Now if it were used for things like confiscating guns and so forth, that is an infringement. I am against any kind of a registry because of historically how they’ve been misused in other countries combined with A-hat uses like the information leaking publicly or turned over in a FOIA request that never should have been granted (like to a news organization).

But the government knowing about something on its face isn’t infringing anything related to guns. Maybe you could make an argument under the 14th that it violates your privacy. Maybe.

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Just a point of correction, the 77R is NOT free, it is $10 fee for the state to process.

dblas said:

Ummmm, last I checked, ATF still contacts the manufacturer to start a trace, then the distributor, and then the dealer for the first sale. They do NOT have a database, since 4473s are NOT sent to the ATF unless an FFL goes out of business.

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Thanks for the information. We only get what the BATFE sends us. I assumed bit was from there records.

lazarus said:

Give me a good argument why a registry that is free is an infringement. It isn’t.

Now if it were used for things like confiscating guns and so forth, that is an infringement. I am against any kind of a registry because of historically how they’ve been misused in other countries combined with A-hat uses like the information leaking publicly or turned over in a FOIA request that never should have been granted (like to a news organization).

But the government knowing about something on its face isn’t infringing anything related to guns. Maybe you could make an argument under the 14th that it violates your privacy. Maybe.

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So....it’s not an infringement until it is?

dblas said:

Just a point of correction, the 77R is NOT free, it is $10 fee for the state to process.

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That isn’t the cost of registration. That is free. That is the cost of a state background check. There is a difference. Sure, they keep a record of it, but just saying.

teratos said:

So....it’s not an infringement until it is?

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Sometimes, yes. As I’ve said, I oppose them because of potential future misuse of the information as well as concerns about the security of the information. But I don’t see how the government knowing what guns you own some how stops you from keeping or bearing arms. It could assist them in infringing it at some point, but the knowledge in and of itself doesn’t regulate or restrict your ability to keep and bear arms. A voter registry doesn’t restrict your ability to vote. It could be used to do such a thing. It can also be used to increase the integrity of an election by ensuring only citizens are allowed to vote.

lazarus said:

Give me a good argument why a registry that is free is an infringement. It isn’t.



Now if it were used for things like confiscating guns and so forth, that is an infringement. I am against any kind of a registry because of historically how they’ve been misused in other countries combined with A-hat uses like the information leaking publicly or turned over in a FOIA request that never should have been granted (like to a news organization).



But the government knowing about something on its face isn’t infringing anything related to guns. Maybe you could make an argument under the 14th that it violates your privacy. Maybe.

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Chicken dinner! Good point and luckily they don’t want to remove guns from society as well as the Second so we are gtg.

lazarus said:

Sometimes, yes. As I’ve said, I oppose them because of potential future misuse of the information as well as concerns about the security of the information. But I don’t see how the government knowing what guns you own some how stops you from keeping or bearing arms. It could assist them in infringing it at some point, but the knowledge in and of itself doesn’t regulate or restrict your ability to keep and bear arms. A voter registry doesn’t restrict your ability to vote. It could be used to do such a thing. It can also be used to increase the integrity of an election by ensuring only citizens are allowed to vote.

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No such list should exist. Reference: France after the German takeover.