Sighting the garand, part II

The #1 community for Gun Owners of the Northeast

Member Benefits:

  • No ad networks!
  • Discuss all aspects of firearm ownership
  • Discuss anti-gun legislation
  • Buy, sell, and trade in the classified section
  • Chat with Local gun shops, ranges, trainers & other businesses
  • Discover free outdoor shooting areas
  • View up to date on firearm-related events
  • Share photos & video with other members
  • ...and so much more!
  • Zorros

    Ultimate Member
    Dec 10, 2017
    1,407
    Metropolis
    These photos show the final sight adjustments to reach the center at 50 and 25 yds. The 25 yd target with many holes has a grouping ( if you can call it that) just to rightof center and that was with front sight moved over right as shown and no windage adjustment. I did not clean the rear sights. Can’t say i am pleased with the need to move that front sight so far right and then adj windage left.
     

    Attachments

    • 3E3CD541-E68A-4D40-857D-80C6F2D06D5B.jpg
      3E3CD541-E68A-4D40-857D-80C6F2D06D5B.jpg
      49.1 KB · Views: 477
    • 8623747F-4E5B-4102-A45D-071EB7D88E81.jpg
      8623747F-4E5B-4102-A45D-071EB7D88E81.jpg
      40.8 KB · Views: 455
    • 3C4F1978-2C12-4E40-915F-5689C75DC61F.jpg
      3C4F1978-2C12-4E40-915F-5689C75DC61F.jpg
      64.3 KB · Views: 443
    • 3846D9A1-A423-47E2-9892-61E8BA18E34E.jpg
      3846D9A1-A423-47E2-9892-61E8BA18E34E.jpg
      75.1 KB · Views: 467

    Zorros

    Ultimate Member
    Dec 10, 2017
    1,407
    Metropolis
    And oh yes, this is the continuation of the thread i started 2 weeks ago, having gone to shoot the garand today. The holes in the red are with windage adjustment. The group in the middle target is 25 yds, no windage.
     
    Jul 1, 2012
    5,711
    I'm no Garand smith but that don't look right :)
    more like one of those special barrels that shoots around corners.
     

    Doco Overboard

    Ultimate Member
    I had a problem like that one time when I swapped a VAR barrel onto a 5 point something SA receiver. The problem was exactly opposite what your seeing with your rifle. If I remember correctly each .008 of movement with the FS is roughly 1 moa@ 100 yds with about 11 min possible on the gas cylinder and the components I had on hand. You can do about 16 at the rear sight at the same distance + which seemed to be evident with the pictures on your original post.

    What I found was that the barrel was not indexed correctly. I used sight fixture bars, double checked with angle finders and found it was dead plumb but still shot left with mechanical zero unobtanium just the way I wanted it without to much FS towards the left of the gas cylinder. What I did to correct it was to time the barrel just prior to plumb if memory serves on that one.

    Maybe someone with more experience can say right off what the problem may be, or if it happens to be and index problem, which way your barrel needs to be turned to get things lined up more to your liking.
     

    j8064

    Garrett Co Hooligan #1
    Feb 23, 2008
    11,635
    Deep Creek
    Here we go again:

    First I suggest you start with a mechanical zero on your Garand. That means having your front sight as close to the center of its base as you can visually get it.
    Next: Bring your rear sight set at zero windage up 8 clicks from bottom.
    Then: Shoot a group (using the correct Garand sight picture and protocol) at 100 yards.
    From there: Adjust elevation and windage with your rear sight -> 1 click = 1" at 100 yards!

    You may ultimately need to tweak the position of your front sight to compensate for alignment, but it's your rear sight that adjusts for windage and elevation.

    This may help you:
    https://www.fulton-armory.com/faqs/M14-FAQs/sighting_in.htm

    Regarding "groups", keep in mind a Garand is not a precision rifle. There are simply too many interacting parts that directly connect between the action and barrel assembly for it to ever be. If you can get a group at 2 MOA or less at 100 yards, you have a good shooter.

    If all your sight test steps fail and your front sight needs to be hanging off the side to be on center at 100 yards, then you have other issues that should be addressed (barrel/receiver timing, barrel and crown condition etc.). Then it's time to send it to the CMP Custom Shop (and plan on waiting awhile) or take it to a gunsmith locally who knows Garands and has experience with them...

    ;)

    P.S. Clean your rear sight. How are you going to learn how your rifle works and how to maintain it if you shy away from simple maintenance tasks you can and should perform yourself?
     

    Zorros

    Ultimate Member
    Dec 10, 2017
    1,407
    Metropolis
    Here we go again:

    First I suggest you start with a mechanical zero on your Garand. That means having your front sight as close to the center of its base as you can visually get it.
    Next: Bring your rear sight set at zero windage up 8 clicks from bottom.
    Then: Shoot a group (using the correct Garand sight picture and protocol) at 100 yards.
    From there: Adjust elevation and windage with your rear sight -> 1 click = 1" at 100 yards!

    You may ultimately need to tweak the position of your front sight to compensate for alignment, but it's your rear sight that adjusts for windage and elevation.

    This may help you:
    https://www.fulton-armory.com/faqs/M14-FAQs/sighting_in.htm

    Regarding "groups", keep in mind a Garand is not a precision rifle. There are simply too many interacting parts that directly connect between the action and barrel assembly for it to ever be. If you can get a group at 2 MOA or less at 100 yards, you have a good shooter.

    If all your sight test steps fail and your front sight needs to be hanging off the side to be on center at 100 yards, then you have other issues that should be addressed (barrel/receiver timing, barrel and crown condition etc.). Then it's time to send it to the CMP Custom Shop (and plan on waiting awhile) or take it to a gunsmith locally who knows Garands and has experience with them...

    ;)

    P.S. Clean your rear sight. How are you going to learn how your rifle works and how to maintain it if you shy away from simple maintenance tasks you can and should perform yourself?

    I did what was suggested. Except the sight. Tonight i will take the rear sight apart. There is a gun smith on the upper eastern shore that is familiar. I told him i might see him tomorrow with a handful of parts in pocket.
     

    j8064

    Garrett Co Hooligan #1
    Feb 23, 2008
    11,635
    Deep Creek
    I did what was suggested. Except the sight. Tonight i will take the rear sight apart. There is a gun smith on the upper eastern shore that is familiar. I told him i might see him tomorrow with a handful of parts in pocket.

    A dirty rear sight is likely not your problem. But cleaning the rear sight gears isn't hard. Be bold - but not stupid! (You should learn how the sight works so thanks for humoring me ;)) Hopefully you've field stripped your rifle, cleaned the action and lubed all the necessary areas on reassembly. If you haven't, it's time to start learning how.

    I have confidence you'll get your Garand running properly. If you've performed the sight alignment field tests correctly, IMHO there's some other underlying issue with your rifle than needs to be identified and corrected.

    Good Luck!
     

    Threeband

    The M1 Does My Talking
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 30, 2006
    25,233
    Carroll County
    The Garand does not have a "battle sight position."

    You just raise the rear sight to give yourself the point of impact you want at 100 (or 200) yards, then loosen the elevation knob and re-lock it so the 100 (or 200) aligns with the mark.

    (There is a little trick to re-locking the knob, which is explained in the Read This First booklet the CMP includes with each Garand.)

    -------


    I wouldn't be happy with that windage, but I'm sure the Army would say it's within spec. Taking it to a Garand smith sounds like a good move.
     

    Zorros

    Ultimate Member
    Dec 10, 2017
    1,407
    Metropolis
    I took the rear sight apart. Its clean and well oiled. I was told by an armorour over here on the shore who has not seen the rifle it is not possible for the barrel to be improperly indexed. Does that make sense? Something to do with relationship to the gas system
     

    Drmsparks

    Old School Rifleman
    Jun 26, 2007
    8,441
    PG county
    Have you checked the gas cylinder? Is it loose? How is the barrel spline under it? if the gas cylinder is off center so will the front sight base.....
     

    Zorros

    Ultimate Member
    Dec 10, 2017
    1,407
    Metropolis
    Have you checked the gas cylinder? Is it loose? How is the barrel spline under it? if the gas cylinder is off center so will the front sight base.....
    To my untrained eye, all appears aligned without looseness.
    But i don’t know what i am looking at.
     

    Doco Overboard

    Ultimate Member
    No because the gas cylinder is splined to the barrel. The op rod has a round piston if its in good shape. Thats why I mentioned on your other thread to check it out for uneven wear that could give you a clue for whats going on.
    Your barrel could be just a few degrees off which can spell problems for proper sight alignment or in the worst case it could be bent or a combination of both and in need of other cumulative defect repair. This is of course after you have exhausted all other points of inspection relating to your specific problem.
    I seen a rear sight that was 16 points of hard left in the first thread. I described where you may have at best 11 minutes of adjustment on the FS dovetail. Your rifle still shot right at 25 and 50 yards with up to four clicks left and the front sight nearly off the dovetail. Things are not going to improve at increased distances.

    Good instruction was given a few posts back to center the FS, clean and inspect your rear sight and previously to have a look at the squashed aperture and to make sure it didn't move left or right when it was being raised or lowered or the hole for the aperture was not distorted. A picture on this thread as best the image indicates seems to me that the front sight blade may even be a little out of wack as best I can tell from what I see.

    At this point if I were you would be to center the sights, find a solid rest and fire the rifle. Make sure you use good ammo and your eye meets the rear sight the same way every time.

    Go from there until you have had an opportunity to rule out other details that may affect your rifles performance or you can get with another to learn more about the rifles characteristics or get your hands on some published materials that will help you determine a root cause.
     

    Zorros

    Ultimate Member
    Dec 10, 2017
    1,407
    Metropolis
    Doco. Yesterday i started wi5h center sights. 8” right. I moved the front sight right. 2” right at 25 yds!
    Moved the rear left 2clicks, on the bull at 25/50 yds. Pics i posted were of the sights after they were moved to a final position.
     

    Zorros

    Ultimate Member
    Dec 10, 2017
    1,407
    Metropolis
    Reading a thread on this subject on the CMP site, this would appear to be common to many rifles. Front sight on one edge or another.
     

    Doco Overboard

    Ultimate Member
    Maybe let a range buddy try it out and see if different results occur. If you have one or more rifles around at the same time, drop it in a different stock and see if it acts differently before you pull the plug to send it off somewhere. Could be something that you may have not discovered yet or just may have overlooked. Not all rifles are exactly at mechanical zero with the FS dead center, more than likely you may have one that one or more things are just adding up differently.
    Theirs a lot of details that good text will help you identify and something else to compare it to side by side can be a tremendous help in itself.
     

    dist1646

    Ultimate Member
    May 1, 2012
    8,758
    Eldersburg
    I took the rear sight apart. Its clean and well oiled. I was told by an armorour over here on the shore who has not seen the rifle it is not possible for the barrel to be improperly indexed. Does that make sense? Something to do with relationship to the gas system

    If the armorer told you that "it is not possible for the barrel to be improperly indexed.", he is wrong! The rifle will function, even if the barrel is off by several degrees from proper index but, it will accelerate parts wear. Take it to someone who knows Garands, like Charlie Maloney, or as I suggested in the other thread, contact the CMP and explain the issue you have. CMP is pretty good about taking care of any issues with rifles that came from them.
     

    Users who are viewing this thread

    Forum statistics

    Threads
    274,924
    Messages
    7,259,203
    Members
    33,349
    Latest member
    christian04

    Latest threads

    Top Bottom