Some c and r questions.

ICW2019 · Mar 24, 2019

I just sent in my collectors application to be able to purchase more than one regulated item per month. I have been diligently reading about the c and r license and I think I have a good base knowledge of the process and what I can do with the license.

I was wondering if there was a up to date list on what I can and can’t do in md with this license in md. Like pistols and long guns being restricted in any way?

kaliroger · Mar 24, 2019

The federal C&R and the MD collectors are not the same. As far as I kow the MD collectors just permits you to buy more than one reg firearm per month. The Federal C&R lets you buy certain regulated firearms rifle and pistols that qualify as C&R without going through a dealer. You need to keep good records and you could get audited by the Feds.

lazarus · Mar 24, 2019

The short. C&R within Maryland for C&R handguns does you no good. Maryland doesn’t recognize it under FSA2013.

For rifles, face to face is legal anyway, so it doesn’t do you any good. You can skip the background check on C&R long guns from an FFL. Saves you 5 minutes.

There is a MD Assitant AG opinion that you are OKAY to order handguns from out of state and have them shipped directly to you (of course only if the handgun itself qualifies as a curio or relic).

Same with long guns. You can also drive out of state and so long as C&R is recognized in the other state, you may purchase handguns and long guns face to face and skip the background check.

PA, VA, WV and I think DE all recognize a C&R license (most have laws that apply to “licensees”. So if it is okay for any other FFL, it is okay to do for an FFL-03/C&R holder.

Maryland makes a clear distinction to “dealers” or “in the business”. Since C&R holders cannot he dealers or in the business of selling firearms...no luck for gluon transactions that occur wholely within Maryland’s borders.

rseymorejr · Mar 24, 2019

You can buy, and have shipped to your house, any C&R eligible gun. However you are still limited to a 10 round mag for semi-autos, unless you go out of state to pick them up.

ICW2019 · Mar 24, 2019

Have any of you c and r guys had problems with websites shipping pistols or long guns into md? I imagine some dealer are probably cautious to send a pistol to maryland.

somd_mustangs · Mar 24, 2019

It varies. Always good to ask first

mac1_131 · Mar 24, 2019

Durangedmikey said:
Have any of you c and r guys had problems with websites shipping pistols or long guns into md? I imagine some dealer are probably cautious to send a pistol to maryland.

Yes, and when you find those just shop elsewhere.

It's nice to go to Chantilly gun show and buy an eligible handgun with it and just come home with it. Makes you feel for a moment like you live in a free state.

SavageShooter · Mar 24, 2019

If it is on the federal government C&R list which is usually a 50 yr. old plus firearm. If it is not on MD's banned list then it should be okay. I'm referring to rifles, shotguns, long guns. I'm not a 100% sure about pistols, revolvers, etc. so I won't comment on that. I have a C&R but have not used it yet. If I were to purchase a C&R rifle from a dealer or distributer. I would first send a photostat copy of the C&R license with an ink signature on it to the dealer or distributer. Then it should be ok.

rseymorejr · Mar 24, 2019

Durangedmikey said:
Have any of you c and r guys had problems with websites shipping pistols or long guns into md? I imagine some dealer are probably cautious to send a pistol to maryland.

I've never had an issue.
I did have an individual seller on Gunbroker say he wouldn't sell a Savage 99 on a C&R license. I E-mailed him with the link showing it was eligible and he agreed to ship it to me.

tallen702 · Mar 24, 2019

Durangedmikey said:
Have any of you c and r guys had problems with websites shipping pistols or long guns into md? I imagine some dealer are probably cautious to send a pistol to maryland.

Depends on the dealer. Your larger sites (AIM, JG, Simpson, Liberty Tree, Classic, Century) are fine with it an most will even pull mags and ship to out-of-state addresses if they're over 10 rounds (for detachable mags). Where you run into problems is with online auction sites and sales sites like Gunbroker, Guns International, etc. etc. where you're dealing with Jim Bob's Gun Hut from Podunk, Alabama who doesn't want to risk their license on accidentally shipping something to MD they shouldn't have.

That said, the real payoff is being able to go out of state to auctions. It's getting really rare to find good deals at the online stores. Classic started buying up available stocks of things in bulk and jacking up the prices, so everyone else is basing their pricing off of Classic now because they're getting the money they're asking from newbies who don't know that they're getting fleeced. As such, hitting auctions and estate sales in PA, WV, VA, and DE, or gun shows in those states, is the best way to use your C&R effectively.

SavageShooter · Mar 24, 2019

The Savage 99 is one of my all time favorites. tallen702 is right on very good advise.

lazarus · Mar 24, 2019

savageShooter said:
If it is on the federal government C&R list which is usually a 50 yr. old plus firearm. If it is not on MD's banned list then it should be okay. I'm referring to rifles, shotguns, long guns. I'm not a 100% sure about pistols, revolvers, etc. so I won't comment on that. I have a C&R but have not used it yet. If I were to purchase a C&R rifle from a dealer or distributer. I would first send a photostat copy of the C&R license with an ink signature on it to the dealer or distributer. Then it should be ok.

Maryland handgun list only has newer guns on it anyway. If it is C&R,’it is maryland legal (for handguns). I am not aware of anything on the list that wouldn’t be legal.

lazarus · Mar 24, 2019

tallen702 said:
Depends on the dealer. Your larger sites (AIM, JG, Simpson, Liberty Tree, Classic, Century) are fine with it an most will even pull mags and ship to out-of-state addresses if they're over 10 rounds (for detachable mags). Where you run into problems is with online auction sites and sales sites like Gunbroker, Guns International, etc. etc. where you're dealing with Jim Bob's Gun Hut from Podunk, Alabama who doesn't want to risk their license on accidentally shipping something to MD they shouldn't have.

That said, the real payoff is being able to go out of state to auctions. It's getting really rare to find good deals at the online stores. Classic started buying up available stocks of things in bulk and jacking up the prices, so everyone else is basing their pricing off of Classic now because they're getting the money they're asking from newbies who don't know that they're getting fleeced. As such, hitting auctions and estate sales in PA, WV, VA, and DE, or gun shows in those states, is the best way to use your C&R effectively.

To add, with some of them you have to call. Classic firearms as the example. You can’t order a Cz82 shipped to MD because the mag is 12 rounds. Give them a call and they’ll process it without the mag. AIM for a Cz82 will just process it and they say upfront on their website for MD and a couple of other states they’ll ship without a mag and you can order right through the website.

BeoBill · Mar 24, 2019

Durangedmikey said:
I just sent in my collectors application to be able to purchase more than one regulated item per month. I have been diligently reading about the c and r license and I think I have a good base knowledge of the process and what I can do with the license.

I was wondering if there was a up to date list on what I can and can’t do in md with this license in md. Like pistols and long guns being restricted in any way?

Let me make something perfectly clear. It appears that you applied for a MARYLAND Designated Collector approval. It is good only in-state, to buy more than one regulated gun in any month. With an HQL if any bought is a pistol. The MSP issues it to you. It means nothing outside MD.

A Federal Curio and Collector License is something entirely different. It is an actual FEDERAL FIREARMS LICENSE (FFL), issued by the ATF, that is on a par with the license issued to your gun store. They are an FFL01, C&R is an FFL03. This means technically it is good anywhere in the US, and you can buy and sell anything that the ATF designates as a Curio or a Relic, door-to-door, FFL to FFL. Because you are an FFL. There are definitions in law for what C&Rs are. There is a list, but it's out of date. Generally speaking, any rifle or pistol more than 50 years old is considered C&R automatically. There is no strict limit on how many C&R weapons you can buy or sell, but if you sell too many the ATF will contact you for a "conversation." How many is too many? No one knows, but if you start buying and selling like an FFL01, expect a call.

I hope this helps explain the difference between the two. BTW, NO license is needed for a designated antique.

somd_mustangs · Mar 24, 2019

BeoBill said:
...There is a list, but it's out of date...

There is a consolidated, updated list available now - up through 2018:

https://www.atf.gov/file/128116/download

If that doesn't work go to the Firearms FAQ's and look for "What firearms are considered to be curio and relic firearms?", the link is at bottom.
ATF has a history of changing the website and breaking links

SavageShooter · Mar 24, 2019

C&R FFL03 is for collecting. Buying and selling. Not for a business like an FFL01. That's why if you sell to many you may get a "conversation call" from the ATF. I have a C&R FFL03 but have never been called by the ATF.

rseymorejr · Mar 24, 2019

The ATF can request to see your book any time. I've had an 03 for 7 or 8 years and have never been contacted. You can buy and sell to build a collection but you can't do it as a business, I don't think there is a specific number that would constitute operating a business, I guess they "know it when they see it"

lazarus · Mar 24, 2019

rseymorejr said:
The ATF can request to see your book any time. I've had an 03 for 7 or 8 years and have never been contacted. You can buy and sell to build a collection but you can't do it as a business, I don't think there is a specific number that would constitute operating a business, I guess they "know it when they see it"

No. The instructions for the license say that the sales must be to improve your collection. It shouldn’t be too hard for them to show if you are making a fair amount of money above and beyond whatever you are actually investing in your collection and show a pattern of buying and selling that indicates a business.

Yes, there is absolutely “I know it when I see it”, but the instructions are clear. If I make $1000 on selling something, that $1000 should be invested in buying something else for my collection.

I doubt very much the ATF gives a flying turd if you make a couple of hundred bucks here or there every once in a while and don’t immediately turn that around and buy something for your collection.

But if you are, say, buying $15,000 worth of firearms in an average year and selling it for $20,000 year after year, then you obviously aren’t investing the money you are making in to your collection (as you are running a large and consistent net profit).

ICW2019 · Mar 25, 2019

I’m pretty aware of the difference for the MD hql and collectors application and I do appreciate you taking the time to make sure that I did. I like older firearms and especially the idea of being able to just buy it and have it shipped without going to a store every time. I attend auctions in pa sometimes with my father in law and this c and r would really be useful.

lazarus · Mar 25, 2019

Durangedmikey said:
I’m pretty aware of the difference for the MD hql and collectors application and I do appreciate you taking the time to make sure that I did. I like older firearms and especially the idea of being able to just buy it and have it shipped without going to a store every time. I attend auctions in pa sometimes with my father in law and this c and r would really be useful.

Just be careful. After I get my C&R I bought all the things. Then my wife found out. Then she made me sell several of those things.

I don't think she particularly cared that I only spent about 2 grand. It was that I had bought 7 or 8 guns that mattered more to her :sad20:

C&R stuff has been a bit slow lately. Not sure if that is a seasonal thing, temporary softness in the market or things just drying up more or less for good (at least import market).

Some c and r questions.

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