Larry Vickers bans appendix carry

Armati said:

Well, get an appendix carry holster and unloaded gun and try it out. Take is slow. You will notice that you essentially must flag yourself to get the pistol back in the holster. And, in most cases, the pistol is always pointing at parts of your anatomy. This sort of violates "Never point a firearm at anything you are not willing to destroy."

Again, I will point out there is a specific reason where appendix carry must be used - deep cover where you MUST hide the fact you are armed. However, for the civilian CCW (and most duty uses) I cannot recommend it and I don't personally know any professional who does. Remember, just because you are using bad technique and nothing bad has happened yet, you are still set up for failure at sometime in the future. There are plenty of people who love the Serpa and have never had a problem with it. Yet, there have still been a disturbing number of Serpa fails.

As to the close combat piece, consider that you average civilian CCW would have to employ his piece because he is about to get robbed or attacked. The BG will pretty much be in your face at that point. Keep in mind The Element is pretty savvy. If they think you are reaching for a weapon they will make a play for it. That is what happened in Ferguson. Make sure you have a plan to defend your CCW, yourself, and get your pistol into the fight. Some of the videos I posted above should give you an idea of how this might go down.

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First of all, I've already named several well-known and VERY well-thought of instructors who use AIWB themselves. Again: Kyle Defoor, Matt Jacques, Paul Howe, Travis Haley, Chris Costa. There are more.

Secondly, you make a lot of assumptions about how a "bad guy" will try to work his magic on a person. Maybe he sees your gun worn at 4:30 print, comes up behind you, and takes it right out of your holster and points it at you. Who knows? You bring up Ferguson, but that was a uniformed cop whose pistol was worn openly, obviously, and therefore has little to do with this discussion. Having a pistol worn AIWB does not prevent me from going "hands-on" on a bad guy in any way. (Indeed, the good thing about a gun worn toward the front is that I can easily defend against a gun grab with either of my hands, which isn't as possible with a gun worn at 3 o'clock-ish.) Only when I've either pulled him in close or gotten some good space would I make a play for my gun, and at that point I don't think it matters where it's worn.

Third, Paul Howe just addressed this very topic in his most recent newsletter. He said that AIWB is fine in his classes (it's how I rolled in both the classes I took with him), and if a student wants to learn how to do it, he'll teach it. Likewise, if you are stuck using a Serpa due to agency rules or the like, he'll teach you how to use one properly.

Fourth, you mention that AIWB is only good for cops working deep concealment, yet poo-poo it for civilians. Yet, the thing that makes it so useful for police in deep concealment is the exact thing that makes it so good for civilians.

Unfortunately, it seems that you are stuck in your bubble of information and cannot see the many good arguments that have been made for AIWB. So be it.

Armati said:

There are plenty of people who love the Serpa and have never had a problem with it. Yet, there have still been a disturbing number of Serpa fails.

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Serpa fails or Serpa user fails?

Big difference.

swinokur said:

Serpa fails or Serpa user fails?

Big difference.

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User fails.
This guy knows not of which he speaks. The Master Expert (legal definition).

I'm not LE or a trainer or even a ninja, but user fails are many times training failures IMO. How many Serpas are in daily use versus AD with them? Lots of folks seem to use them without incident.

swinokur said:

I'm not LE or a trainer or even a ninja, but user fails are many times training failures IMO. How many Serpas are in daily use versus AD with them? Lots of folks seem to use them without incident.

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The thing about a Serpa is that they are used A LOT in uniform. Many pistol draws being made for non quick draw situations.
Using a holster with a retention safety while concealed is sort of redundant.
Very few shooting incidents are a one on one approach where the bad guy has been watching you to see if your're carrying and where, in order to go for your pistol.
Appendix carry allows for a very stealthy draw. I teach this to people if they are in a public situation where an active shooter originates. Every gun draw does not need the blinding speed, push yourself out from the table, stand and take a shot. Sitting, while everyone stands, can save your life.

Getting long winded here. My post #26 explains perfectly why people shoot themselves while on the line. Shooting yourself in the groin region is more lethal than in the outside thigh.

Man, where to begin?!

Ok, let's start with the more obvious problem that you pretty much have to flag yourself to appendix carry. Sort of violates Rule #2 "Never point a firearm at anything you are not willing to destroy."

If guys aren't flagging themselves how are they getting shot when they ND?

This is fundamental to any Risk Management planning. You mitigate the known hazards - especially the hazards you can control - like flagging yourself!

AIWB is still authorized with John McPhee (Sheriff of Baghdad) classes.

Armati said:

Man, where to begin?!

Ok, let's start with the more obvious problem that you pretty much have to flag yourself to appendix carry. Sort of violates Rule #2 "Never point a firearm at anything you are not willing to destroy."

If guys aren't flagging themselves how are they getting shot when they ND?

This is fundamental to any Risk Management planning. You mitigate the known hazards - especially the hazards you can control - like flagging yourself!

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You truly have never been outside the classroom environment. You speak so textbook perfect.

What's your age?

Armati said:

Man, where to begin?!

Ok, let's start with the more obvious problem that you pretty much have to flag yourself to appendix carry. Sort of violates Rule #2 "Never point a firearm at anything you are not willing to destroy."

If guys aren't flagging themselves how are they getting shot when they ND?

This is fundamental to any Risk Management planning. You mitigate the known hazards - especially the hazards you can control - like flagging yourself!

Click to expand...

You flag yourself with pretty much any IWB concealed carry holster. Get a laser boresighter and check it out.
It's very simple to mitigate risks with any holster. Keep triggerguard clear, keep finger off trigger, (I place it on the shelf of the ejection port) verify visually "mouth" of holster is clear, tactile check with thumb if you want to. Slowly insert pistol and reconceal.
This along with regularly function checking your pistol will keep you safe.

Where do I begin? Okay, the flagging part- explain to me how re-holstering with an appendix holster is any different from re-holstering with a IWB carried behind the strongside hip....or an OWB on the strongside hip? It isn't. In fact, I'd say the appendix is inherently safer because you can clearly see what you are doing, and have a lot less cover garment to manage while doing it.

Next, the deep cover reference. If you are legally carrying concealed as a civilian or off-duty LEO, you are supposed to be concerned with hiding the fact that you are armed. That is the whole freaking point, and why we concern ourselves with not printing in the first place!

The problem with this whole discussion (on multiple forums by many who've never actually carried concealed in any capacity) of LAV's decision for his classes is that there is a failure to recognize the context of the decision. The classes that LAV is teaching are handgun classes, not concealed carry classes. 95+% of the class is using a OWB belt holster or drop leg rig, and you have one guy using an appendix rig with extremely high numbers of presentations- first, that guy is going to make me take pause because he is doing something different (competent or not); second, he is going to slow my class down to the determent of other students; third, there may be safety concerns based on the first; and finally, getting concealed presentations is not why you go to a handgun course of this type. Mike Pannone has a similar rule in effect for all but his concealed carry class- makes damn good sense.

I carry almost exclusively AIWB. I changed my primary AIWB rig for a course I took with 3rd RCN and Blaster because my rig, a Raven Concealment VG2 with belt loop, is not conducive to presentation repetitions in a class. That said, the instructors were already busy enough dealing with folks that did not have the basics of drawing from any holster, and in some cases basic safety. Instructors have a lot on their plates in these classes, and safety should be paramount. I don't look at LAV's decision as an indictment of "my" preferred carry method. I don't get all this discussion it's generating, but it sure is entertaining.

Armati said:

Well, get an appendix carry holster and unloaded gun and try it out. Take is slow. You will notice that you essentially must flag yourself to get the pistol back in the holster. And, in most cases, the pistol is always pointing at parts of your anatomy. This sort of violates "Never point a firearm at anything you are not willing to destroy."

Again, I will point out there is a specific reason where appendix carry must be used - deep cover where you MUST hide the fact you are armed. However, for the civilian CCW (and most duty uses) I cannot recommend it and I don't personally know any professional who does. Remember, just because you are using bad technique and nothing bad has happened yet, you are still set up for failure at sometime in the future. There are plenty of people who love the Serpa and have never had a problem with it. Yet, there have still been a disturbing number of Serpa fails.

As to the close combat piece, consider that you average civilian CCW would have to employ his piece because he is about to get robbed or attacked. The BG will pretty much be in your face at that point. Keep in mind The Element is pretty savvy. If they think you are reaching for a weapon they will make a play for it. That is what happened in Ferguson. Make sure you have a plan to defend your CCW, yourself, and get your pistol into the fight. Some of the videos I posted above should give you an idea of how this might go down.

Click to expand...

Kevp said:

Where do I begin? Okay, the flagging part- explain to me how re-holstering with an appendix holster is any different from re-holstering with a IWB carried behind the strongside hip....or an OWB on the strongside hip? It isn't. In fact, I'd say the appendix is inherently safer because you can clearly see what you are doing, and have a lot less cover garment to manage while doing it.

Next, the deep cover reference. If you are legally carrying concealed as a civilian or off-duty LEO, you are supposed to be concerned with hiding the fact that you are armed. That is the whole freaking point, and why we concern ourselves with not printing in the first place!

The problem with this whole discussion (on multiple forums by many who've never actually carried concealed in any capacity) of LAV's decision for his classes is that there is a failure to recognize the context of the decision. The classes that LAV is teaching are handgun classes, not concealed carry classes. 95+% of the class is using a OWB belt holster or drop leg rig, and you have one guy using an appendix rig with extremely high numbers of presentations- first, that guy is going to make me take pause because he is doing something different (competent or not); second, he is going to slow my class down to the determent of other students; third, there may be safety concerns based on the first; and finally, getting concealed presentations is not why you go to a handgun course of this type. Mike Pannone has a similar rule in effect for all but his concealed carry class- makes damn good sense.

I carry almost exclusively AIWB. I changed my primary AIWB rig for a course I took with 3rd RCN and Blaster because my rig, a Raven Concealment VG2 with belt loop, is not conducive to presentation repetitions in a class. That said, the instructors were already busy enough dealing with folks that did not have the basics of drawing from any holster, and in some cases basic safety. Instructors have a lot on their plates in these classes, and safety should be paramount. I don't look at LAV's decision as an indictment of "my" preferred carry method. I don't get all this discussion it's generating, but it sure is entertaining.

Click to expand...

KevP, I've made most of these same points several times in this thread, as have Blaster and Pretoria. Some of those same points also appear in this article:

https://civiliangunfighter.wordpress.com/2015/06/28/appendix-carry-misplaced-controversy/

You can lead a horse to water......

--H

Roger. I didn't have the time or desire to read this whole thread, but felt inclined to respond to that one post since the poster seemed to make himself out to be a professional of some sort.

hogarth said:

KevP, I've made most of these same points several times in this thread, as have Blaster and Pretoria. Some of those same points also appear in this article:

https://civiliangunfighter.wordpress.com/2015/06/28/appendix-carry-misplaced-controversy/

You can lead a horse to water......

--H

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Kevp said:

... for a course I took with 3rd RCN and Blaster ...

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Blaster, when are you going to start doing this more frequently? Would be a nice way to supplement your income. Are you able to get work approval for outside activities (I'm forgetting the form #) pretty easily?

fidelity said:

Blaster, when are you going to start doing this more frequently? Would be a nice way to supplement your income. Are you able to get work approval for outside activities (I'm forgetting the form #) pretty easily?

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I can do what I want on the weekends outside of work.

Well then, I hope to see a course schedule, or something that we can sign up for soon.

fidelity said:

Well then, I hope to see a course schedule, or something that we can sign up for soon.

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Won't be anything formal anytime soon. But I keep threatening to have a few people out somewhere on a weekend sometime. But we know how that is always tough to work out.

Blaster229 said:

I can do what I want on the weekends outside of work.

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We have to get "approval" for any training we do outside of our current position. They don't want a conflict of interest. Ol' government wants theirs first lol.

Neot said:

We have to get "approval" for any training we do outside of our current position. They don't want a conflict of interest. Ol' government wants theirs first lol.

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Coupla people getting together to shoot on the weekend requires no approval

Blaster229 said:

Coupla people getting together to shoot on the weekend requires no approval

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Very true! A little pew pew pewing is always good!

hogarth said:

First of all, I've already named several well-known and VERY well-thought of instructors who use AIWB themselves. Again: Kyle Defoor, Matt Jacques, Paul Howe, Travis Haley, Chris Costa. There are more.

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I am more of an LAV, Kyle Lamb, Frank Proctor guy myself if you know where I am coming from.

Chris Costa....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBaISwLnrgo