Now that 41F is the law......

Arcamm · Jul 13, 2016

Now that 41F is the law, is it clear yet what the effects on trusts are , or do we now go into the ATF's interpretation stage?

bbrown · Jul 13, 2016

More questions about 41F:

Now that 41F is the law, are there updated BATFE Form4s that no longer have the space for CLEO signoff?

Are there BATFE forms for notifying the CLEO when submitting a Form4?

trickg · Jul 13, 2016

Browsing down through this, it seems to be a pretty good breakdown of what it means.

https://www.atf.gov/rules-and-regul...-checks-responsible-persons-effective-july-13

erwos · Jul 13, 2016

I think the interpretation is going to devolve into who the BATFE believes are the responsible parties.

The beneficiaries on my trust have zero power, usage, or ownership until my wife and I die. But that's not a guarantee that the BATFE will read it the same way.

bbrown · Jul 13, 2016

trickg said:
Browsing down through this, it seems to be a pretty good breakdown of what it means.

https://www.atf.gov/rules-and-regul...-checks-responsible-persons-effective-july-13

Thanks for the links, those answer my questions completely. At least now there'll be no additional delay caused by CLEO signoff before submission.

swinokur · Jul 13, 2016

new forms
.

Arcamm · Jul 13, 2016

I was checking out the new form. It has all of the blanks operational and it auto fills the LEO copy, that's nice.

I just ordered some finger print cards. I want to see how long it takes to get them.

Hawkeye · Jul 13, 2016

erwos said:
I think the interpretation is going to devolve into who the BATFE believes are the responsible parties.

I think it's actually pretty clear who they believe the responsible persons are.

In the case of a trust, those persons with the power or authority to direct the management and policies of the trust include any person who has the capability to exercise such power and possesses, directly or indirectly, the power or authority under any trust instrument, or under State law, to receive, possess, ship, transport, deliver, transfer, or otherwise dispose of a firearm for, or on behalf of, the trust.

Thus, if a person has any of the powers enumerated above, they're a responsible person. That part is pretty clear. I think the fungible part comes in to where now the ATF is going to have to read through every single trust that they get in order to determine who, on that particular trust, is a responsible person. In the past, it didn't particularly matter if a given person was an RP or not, because it effectively didn't matter, and now it does.

This is why I was actually really happy that the guys behind my trust (199Trust.com) emailed me a couple weeks ago with a free amendment template for my trust that points out in very plain language that only the Settlor and full Trustees are RPs, NOT the successor trustees or beneficiaries.

erwos · Jul 13, 2016

Hawkeye said:
I think it's actually pretty clear who they believe the responsible persons are.

It's more the "read through the trust and understand who has what powers" that I think the BATFE is going to choke on.

Mdeng · Jul 13, 2016

My big concern is how will finger prints be submitted via efile. Will we be able to scan the card and upload or will we have to pay for Live Scan?

ST19AG_WGreymon · Jul 13, 2016

Mdeng said:
My big concern is how will finger prints be submitted via efile. Will we be able to scan the card and upload or will we have to pay for Live Scan?

This^.

Hawkeye · Jul 13, 2016

erwos said:
It's more the "read through the trust and understand who has what powers" that I think the BATFE is going to choke on.

This is exactly what I was getting after.

It could mean a rise in processing times for Trust applications.

Of course, who knows how the ATF will decide to do anything. They can always just come out with another "a shoelace is a machinegun" wackadoodle reading of things any time they want to.

Wayne1one · Jul 13, 2016

Mdeng said:
My big concern is how will finger prints be submitted via efile. Will we be able to scan the card and upload or will we have to pay for Live Scan?

Since they (ATF) said that the fingerprints don't have to be from law enforcement, and Silencer Shop already has a machine in production to do finger prints, I think that you can just scan you prints in and upload them (digital prints). This shouldn't be an issue..

http://blog.silencershop.com/atf-41f-is-not-the-end/

jthoma24 · Jul 14, 2016

Wayne1one said:
Since they (ATF) said that the fingerprints don't have to be from law enforcement, and Silencer Shop already has a machine in production to do finger prints, I think that you can just scan you prints in and upload them (digital prints). This shouldn't be an issue..

http://blog.silencershop.com/atf-41f-is-not-the-end/

Or just buy an ink pad.....

TheBulge · Jul 14, 2016

I wonder if the prints have an expiration date like the ones we send MSP?

If not you could just get a set done and resend them each time.

SneakySh0rty · Jul 14, 2016

I kind of want to test how fast the process will be now. I wonder if trusts after 41F will get dedicated examiners as the others go through the pre-41F rush. I just need to review the requirements for the fingerprints/photo

Pinecone · Jul 15, 2016

TheBulge said:
I wonder if the prints have an expiration date like the ones we send MSP?

If not you could just get a set done and resend them each time.

You have to send them on a fingerprint card.

So until you can somehow get the scan of the prints to print them on the card yourself, it might be difficult.

But one of the places that digitally takes your prints and prints them in a laser printer on the the card, could print you 10 or more cards at a time.

bobthefisher · Jul 15, 2016

I'm sorry, but commercial printers that would support a high enough DPI (resolution) for fingerprints, are not economically viable for standard kiosks or typical home users, nor would the ATF accept such print-outs. For this to work it would be a process similar to Live Scan, in which the fingerprints are never physically printed to paper, but are solely collected / stored digitally.

MDElite · Jul 15, 2016

Wayne1one said:
Since they (ATF) said that the fingerprints don't have to be from law enforcement, and Silencer Shop already has a machine in production to do finger prints, I think that you can just scan you prints in and upload them (digital prints). This shouldn't be an issue..

http://blog.silencershop.com/atf-41f-is-not-the-end/

Hmm, I wonder what shop in Finksburg is going to have one of those

. I bet it's an IP with the initials BBP.

why2kmax · Jul 16, 2016

Form 1 has been removed from the ATF eforms site. so that answers that for now.

Now that 41F is the law......

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