Go Back   Maryland Shooters > Topics of Interest > Competitive Shooting
Don't Have An Account? Register Here

Join MD Shooters

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old November 11th, 2019, 10:54 PM #81
Ecestu Ecestu is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 41
Ecestu Ecestu is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by Art3 View Post
I'm not going to rat anyone out, but I know what happened...and I also know that you weren't the only one who did it (and it made the rest of us who hadn't shot that stage yet extra extra cautious).

I don't get many opportunities to go first, because the order is generally alphabetized, but next time I'm in a similar situation I may watch the group in front of us more closely.
Ecestu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 11th, 2019, 11:07 PM #82
Art3's Avatar
Art3 Art3 is online now
Eqinsu Ocha
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Harford County
Posts: 3,997
Art3 Art3 is online now
Eqinsu Ocha
Art3's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Harford County
Posts: 3,997
Katie has some videos that I'm waiting for her to post. She put them on facebook, and some didn't work right. I don't know what the hold up is

This was definitely more challenging than the other small matches we'd done. The 2 min par time was a little frustrating. I knew I was going to be quite slow on shotgun and not exactly speedy on rifle...but I ran out of time before I could shoot pistol on two stages. That was a bummer. I know they need to get shooters through in a timely manner, but check out my math here: assuming there where 60 shooters, giving an additional 30 seconds to the par time would only make the match take half an hour longer if everyone used it, right? Obviously not everyone would use the extra, so it ultimately extend the match even less. Seeing a shooter I know to be experienced and faster than me time out before I went made me feel like, "Damn! What chance do I have?" It definitely changed the mental dynamic of the game from one of racing the clock for my personal best to racing the clock just to be able to play to the end. But, we adapted and opted to leave targets standing in order to get to the later ones.

I knew the practice we put in beforehand, so I'm A-ok with being slow. My personal disappointments were my pistol accuracy (I used to be really good with my 1991A1...I guess I've become too accustomed to the plastic fantastic I shoot in steel challenge ), and my M1A malfunctioned on the last stage That's never happened to me before Of course, there was no time to diagnose the problem beyond getting it cleared...so I have no idea why it happened and it is going to haunt me until I get it figured out.

But, it was still a lot of fun
__________________
.
.

"Dear autocorrect: I'm really getting tired of your shirt!"

I would like to change my gender identity to "Well Regulated Militia."
Art3 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old November 11th, 2019, 11:28 PM #83
Ecestu Ecestu is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 41
Ecestu Ecestu is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by Art3 View Post
Katie has some videos that I'm waiting for her to post. She put them on facebook, and some didn't work right. I don't know what the hold up is

This was definitely more challenging than the other small matches we'd done. The 2 min par time was a little frustrating. I knew I was going to be quite slow on shotgun and not exactly speedy on rifle...but I ran out of time before I could shoot pistol on two stages. That was a bummer. I know they need to get shooters through in a timely manner, but check out my math here: assuming there where 60 shooters, giving an additional 30 seconds to the par time would only make the match take half an hour longer if everyone used it, right? Obviously not everyone would use the extra, so it ultimately extend the match even less. Seeing a shooter I know to be experienced and faster than me time out before I went made me feel like, "Damn! What chance do I have?" It definitely changed the mental dynamic of the game from one of racing the clock for my personal best to racing the clock just to be able to play to the end. But, we adapted and opted to leave targets standing in order to get to the later ones.

I knew the practice we put in beforehand, so I'm A-ok with being slow. My personal disappointments were my pistol accuracy (I used to be really good with my 1991A1...I guess I've become too accustomed to the plastic fantastic I shoot in steel challenge ), and my M1A malfunctioned on the last stage That's never happened to me before Of course, there was no time to diagnose the problem beyond getting it cleared...so I have no idea why it happened and it is going to haunt me until I get it figured out.

But, it was still a lot of fun
But that M1A sure was pretty...
Ecestu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 12th, 2019, 07:17 AM #84
Bikebreath's Avatar
Bikebreath Bikebreath is online now
21st Century Hoplite
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: in the bowels of Baltimore
Posts: 10,809
Images: 3
Bikebreath Bikebreath is online now
21st Century Hoplite
Bikebreath's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: in the bowels of Baltimore
Posts: 10,809
Images: 3
I've come across the 120 second "rule" at other matches. Get faster, or different equipment...
Bikebreath is online now   Reply With Quote
Old November 12th, 2019, 08:39 AM #85
MEGARMS's Avatar
MEGARMS MEGARMS is offline
KnowNothing
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Carroll County
Posts: 2,941
MEGARMS MEGARMS is offline
KnowNothing
MEGARMS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Carroll County
Posts: 2,941
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bikebreath View Post
I've come across the 120 second "rule" at other matches. Get faster, or different equipment...
So, 120 second Par Time is pretty standard and likely will not change. It is designed to keep things moving and it forces the shooter to strategize and plan. I learned that this was a brand new concept to some of the first time shooters. Now that they are aware of it, my guess is that they will plan their shoot and shoot their plan more efficiently. I know I also learned this the hard way when I first started shooting 3 gun.

One learns very quickly that you can not spend too much time on any one prop and that you need to know when to call it quits and move on. The most important thing from an overall timing/scoring perspective is that the shooter ENGAGE every target, even if they do not NUETRALIZE all of them. Penalties are far greater on FTE (Failure to Engage), than on FTN (Failure to Neutralize); plus it is no fun if you don't get to shoot the entire course.


When my partner (the stage designer) and I debriefed, I covered this topic and several other feedback items that I received with him. He told me that he received some of the same feedback, however was also told by others that the stages were not challenging enough (did you know we had 3 members of the Marine Corps shooting team with us this weekend?). This is something that we all encountered when we first started shooting 3 Gun and we quickly learned that Planning and equipment choices are every bit as important as shooting accurately.

So herein lies the challenge for us. We want to attract as many new shooters as possible, but also want to keep it interesting enough for the seasoned guys keep showing up and bringing their friends. It is a juggling act that is tough to be perfect on, because no matter what somebody is not going to be satisfied. Because of this, we are probably going to ask that the less seasoned shooters bring their game up rather than expecting those who have put in the time/money to bring theirs down. We still want feedback/constructive criticisms, and will make adjustments where it makes sense, but making things easier probably is not on that list. I hope that doesn't sound too harsh or unwelcoming, but this is the direction things are going to head in, at least as far as our Monthly 3 Gun Matches are concerned.

So in summary, I would recommend working on or focusing on the following to those who felt the courses to be too challenging and the par times to be too short.

1. Planning/Strategy - Be aware that there is a 120 second Par Time on each Course Of Fire *unless stated otherwise) - Don't spend too much time/ammo trying to neutralize any one prop. Have a plan, work the plan, and nine times out of ten the plan will work.

2. Equipment/Divisions - Don't bring or use equipment that will slow you down. Pump Shotguns, especially those without extended magazine tubes are a time killer. Heavy Metal is a division that is really for more seasoned shooters (even though it does not require a pump, it does require firearms with lower overall capacities and lots more recoil and target acquisition time). If you don't have a shotgun set up for 3 gun, then borrow one from someone who does. This is typical and has never been an issue for anyone at any match I have ever been to.

Also, invest in a solid 3 Gun Rig (belt, holster, Rifle/Pistol mag pouches and SHOTGUN SHELL CADDIES. You can't expect to keep up without the proper equipment. I know that all of this can require a large capital outlay. Three Gun is very expensive to get into which is why it is not as popular as steel challenge, IDPA, etc.

3. When spring comes, start attending our Thursday evening practice sessions. We normally focus on Pistol, Rifle, or Shotgun (sometimes two guns). Attendance is typically small and you get to shoot with a lot with guys who know what they are doing and can help mentor you on how to become a quicker, more efficient shooter. If time allows, we may even schedule some weekend sessions like that are that work the same way.
MEGARMS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 12th, 2019, 10:56 AM #86
knovotny's Avatar
knovotny knovotny is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Joppa, MD
Posts: 490
knovotny knovotny is offline
Member
knovotny's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Joppa, MD
Posts: 490
It is very tough to balance making things inviting for new people, and challenging enough for experienced shooters. I think briefly covering those things you guys found in your debrief, during the briefing would be helpful for newer 3 gun shooters.

Because of the limitations of the range, there are certain things that we cannot do. So some of the people who have been at places with more extensive ranges, may find some things at the AGC too easy, not really anything we can do about that. I don't think it needs dumbed down any. But making some things clear at the start will allow less experienced shooters to feel they had a more positive experience. I know I read the rules, but some things just aren't clear until you do it.

One thing I will add. I know things need to be kept moving. But there were times that I felt there was a urgent rush to get the next shooter started shooting. That can lead to them getting frazzled. Then others took their time and stood at each shooting point planning their stage. If that is allowed, which I believe it is, maybe we don't rush the next person to go so much.

For so many people who have been long term AGC members, this is all pretty new, and they don't know what they don't know. They just want to not get in trouble, not get DQ'ed, and not feel like they are causing any issues, or holding anyone up.

Finally, to me, regarding difficulty moving forward, the question is what is this meant to be? A welcoming match for AGC members? A place that AGC members can come and at least have fun and maybe not be very competitive, but feel like they had a good time and decide to invest in serious equipment. Or is the plan to be world class? To attract the best 3 gun shooters in the area, and well, if average guys are turned off because they don't know the minutiae of the sport, f-em?

Just my thoughts on this grey morning.
__________________
"What country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance. Let them take arms"
knovotny is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 12th, 2019, 11:18 AM #87
MEGARMS's Avatar
MEGARMS MEGARMS is offline
KnowNothing
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Carroll County
Posts: 2,941
MEGARMS MEGARMS is offline
KnowNothing
MEGARMS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Carroll County
Posts: 2,941
Quote:
Originally Posted by knovotny View Post
It is very tough to balance making things inviting for new people, and challenging enough for experienced shooters. I think briefly covering those things you guys found in your debrief, during the briefing would be helpful for newer 3 gun shooters. _- Noted and reasonable - While it is impossible to cover all 15 pages of rules, we will definitely bring up the timing issue at the next briefing.

Because of the limitations of the range, there are certain things that we cannot do. So some of the people who have been at places with more extensive ranges, may find some things at the AGC too easy, not really anything we can do about that. I don't think it needs dumbed down any. But making some things clear at the start will allow less experienced shooters to feel they had a more positive experience. I know I read the rules, but some things just aren't clear until you do it. - Noted and we will do our best - I remember my first few matches and I learned a lot of these things the hard way too. After awhile, they become second nature. It is hard to touch on everything.

One thing I will add. I know things need to be kept moving. But there were times that I felt there was a urgent rush to get the next shooter started shooting. That can lead to them getting frazzled. Then others took their time and stood at each shooting point planning their stage. If that is allowed, which I believe it is, maybe we don't rush the next person to go so much. - Something else we don't announce, but everyone is given 5 minutes prior to the squad shooting a stage, to review it and plan. Shooters are expected to be ready when they step to the line. I am personally guilty of taking an extra minute or two to review my plan in my head when I step to the line. This is because I have been busy attending to everyone else when I was supposed to be planning. I will do my best to not do this going forward.

For so many people who have been long term AGC members, this is all pretty new, and they don't know what they don't know. They just want to not get in trouble, not get DQ'ed, and not feel like they are causing any issues, or holding anyone up.

Finally, to me, regarding difficulty moving forward, the question is what is this meant to be? A welcoming match for AGC members? A place that AGC members can come and at least have fun and maybe not be very competitive, but feel like they had a good time and decide to invest in serious equipment. Or is the plan to be world class? To attract the best 3 gun shooters in the area, and well, if average guys are turned off because they don't know the minutiae of the sport, f-em? - Simple answer, tough solution is that we want it all. We want to grow this program and this match in particular and make it as competitive as possible. At the same time we want to be friendly enough to new shooters so that they feel comfortable and have fun. Again, we offer Thursday night practices and may very well start weekend practices as well. At some point, once this match has matured, we may start to offer a less competitive match. Need someone to step up an run it; volunteers anyone?

Just my thoughts on this grey morning.
see responses above
MEGARMS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 12th, 2019, 11:44 AM #88
knovotny's Avatar
knovotny knovotny is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Joppa, MD
Posts: 490
knovotny knovotny is offline
Member
knovotny's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Joppa, MD
Posts: 490
Thanks for the thoughtful responses! I didn't intend to call you out specifically on the stage planning. It's very hard to run something, and participate. Making sure everyone knows they have time at the beginning to do a walk through, and then for the first person to get loaded and ready would alleviate that stress for sure. Eventually going to 2 matches a month sounds like a great idea too. A beginner friendly match and a "pro"match. I personally can't get out to the AGC for practices during the week, so weekend practices sound fun. Getting volunteers to commit to running it all is the hard part. I appreciate all the work you and others have put into this, and I look forward to future matches.
__________________
"What country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance. Let them take arms"
knovotny is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 12th, 2019, 11:53 AM #89
jimbobborg's Avatar
jimbobborg jimbobborg is offline
Oddball caliber fan
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 16,408
jimbobborg jimbobborg is offline
Oddball caliber fan
jimbobborg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 16,408
It sounds like you need to manage expectations prior to the match. I'm betting I know the three Marines who shot there, and I think at least one helps with the 3-gun match at Quantico. You might want to pick their brains on match set up and such next time you see them.
__________________
When you can't list all of your guns in your signature because you ran out of characters, you might be a redneck.

Jim
jimbobborg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old November 12th, 2019, 02:46 PM #90
erwos's Avatar
erwos erwos is online now
The Hebrew Hammer
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Rockville, MD
Posts: 10,325
erwos erwos is online now
The Hebrew Hammer
erwos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Rockville, MD
Posts: 10,325
I timed out on two stages at the previous Sunday match, which was my first real multi-gun match ever, and here's my opinion: the 120 second par time is more than adequate, especially given that the stages were ~30 rounds total. I timed out because I didn't have the appropriate (and reliable) 3GN guns/gear, I was slow loading shotgun, and didn't do a great job of stage planning (especially the shotgun bits). That's all on me, and they're all things I've improved for the next go-around.

I think the level of hand-holding at the last match was MORE than adequate. It's a competition. You can bring whatever guns, gear, and skill you have, but no one can to guarantee you're competitive with those.
__________________
Things I love: bullpups, mag-fed shotguns, Glocks-not-made-by-Glock, .458 SOCOM, 6.5 Grendel, giving my opinion
Things I hate: .40S&W, KeyMod, AR pistols with buffer tubes, anything with an arm brace, fad-of-the-day long-range calibers
erwos is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

  Home Page > Forum List > Topics of Interest > Competitive Shooting


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:19 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
2019, Congregate Media, LP Privacy Policy Terms of Service