Calls for "Common Sense Gun Control" - no real surprise

The Solar Warrior said:

Click to expand...

lazarus said:

The problem is when your opening line is delusional, it sort of discounts everything else you say even if it has merit (having just passed the half million dead mark in the US). Just like climate change. You can argue what to do about it, but when you argue a proven thing doesn't exist...

Click to expand...

The Solar Warrior said:

Sorry if I hit a nerve there, bud. The virus is real, but it was definitely engineered and escaped to have a predetermined, calculated response. There's been a slew of worse viruses out like the swine flue and bird flu that were more dangerous but nobody really cared because those were actual accidents or black swan events.

Click to expand...

snallygaster said:

Now we know why they're keeping the NG in DC.

Click to expand...

BeoBill said:

You mean in "Fort Pelosi"?

By the way, DHS and FBI are now hunting white, middle class "Domestic Terrorists"; the First and Second Amendments are being legislated out of existence, Silicon Valley tech moguls are telling country populations what they can and cannot say, the media are government propaganda outlets, schools are teaching Marxism and white segregation instead of Patriotism, election and voter fraud investigations are being suppressed, the military is being purged of non-Quislings, and the Leftist Activist Vice President is running the country.

Taking a step back and looking at the macro picture, the U.S, is now an Oligarchy. It looks like the soft coup has succeeded after all...

[/rant]

Click to expand...

lazarus said:

There is no evidence of that though. Zero.

Click to expand...

Jub said:

Not an incorrect statement but very incomplete. The Chinese government immediately prevented anyone, especially journalists, from going into Wuhan when the virus created the global panic. The idea that COVID is a leaked virus is still a hypothesis at this point but it has very strong reasoning why you would be inclined to believe it over the naturally occurring virus hypothesis. Sadly, it has been a year since and the World Health Organization (WHO), who receives a bunch of money from China, has just been able to investigate. China also increased investment significantly in April 2020, linked below for receipts. A year after the incident, the Chinese would have been doing damage control and erased any evidence. In addition, the investigation board (WHO) has a conflict of interest to say the least.

It is true that there is not firm evidence to point to the virus being a lab leak. The fact that it originated in Wuhan, where a biosafety level 4 lab exists that is known to study coronaviruses, should be enough to reason that the hypothesis is strong. Sadly, a real investigation is not really possible at this point. If you firmly believe in the WHO or the "fact-checkers" on this one, I think your critical thinking skills are lacking. Anyone who says "I believe in the Science" and completely shuts down the lab leak hypothesis is stating an oxymoron. China made it impossible to exercise the scientific method on that hypothesis. I failed to embed the youtube link below but it is of a left-leaning evolutionary biology professor explaining the lab hypothesis.

https://www.businessinsider.com/chi...llar-contribution-political-power-move-2020-4

https://youtu.be/ZMGWLLDSA3c

Click to expand...

twybyll said:

What's the alternate reality? Trump gets re-elected and goes ahead with his own plans to ban "3D plastic" guns plus anything else he's mentioned? I'm not a democrat, but at least they didn't add any gun restrictions during their 8 years.

Click to expand...

2A isn't only a right vs. left political party issue, although people are trying to scare you into thinking that.

Click to expand...

lazarus said:

Oh, yeah, it COULD be. However, there is no genetic evidence in the virus itself that it is. At most there could have been forced evolution of it from an extant coronavirus. There is zero evidence of any splicing to create it.

Occam's razor though. We've know of SARS and MERS. SARS-CoV-1 and SARS-CoV-2 have significant genetic similarities and appear to have originated from the same progenitor virus not too long ago before diverging. Scientists have been warning for a lonnngggggg time now that we've been on borrowed time before a major new respiratory virus emerged.

China is going to play cover up because it is what they do. They have an authoritarian government that must keep their populace pacified, which means never losing face. They must be infallible. So they can't take blame for anything. They won't admit to incompetence so they'll cover up the best they can and then spread claims that really everyone should be looking at the US because it probably was a US created virus that leaked from a US lab (and somehow appeared in China).

Bold claims take bold evidence and there is no real evidence that the virus is engineered and plenty of evidence that it is naturally occurring.

Click to expand...

28Shooter said:

"Common Sense Gun Control", "Social Justice", "For the Children", "Racism', and "White Privilege" are all now just Liberal dog whistles for when they have no facts, no evidence, and no substance to bring to a discussion of an issue.

Click to expand...

Jub said:

I don't see why Occam's razor suggests that it is naturally occurring when it cropped up in a city where there is a heavily secured lab that studies Coronaviruses. A lab leak does not necessarily mean that it was modified, nor does it necessarily mean that it was intended to be a bio-weapon, nor purposefully leaked. It could be any of those things and we will likely never know. I do not know nearly enough about biology to debate how the virus is genetically composed so I will not attempt to go down that wormhole. If that is your area of expertise, I'd be curious to hear an argument. I have not seen scientific data making claims to have evidence showing that it was not made in a lab. I have seen an alleged escaped Chinese virologist who claimed she has scientific evidence that it was made in a lab, first link below. Again, I will not get into a biologically rooted argument so I don't know what to believe here. My point in bringing that up is that I do not think either argument is really conclusive and I'm skeptical of both as much as this whole thing has been politicized.

The WHO study on the origins of the virus were inconclusive. Though they stated that they think it came from the wet market, none of the meat they tested showed traces of the virus. It seems odd to me that they continue to push that theory with, as you state, zero hard evidence. Another part of that study that should raise some level of concern is that the US representative conducting the study is Peter Daszak. He is the president of a company that conducts gain-of-function research on these types of viruses. This type of research is controversial as to whether it is ethical and poses more danger than it insulates risk. He has government grants all over the world to study viruses in high security labs. In some ways, that makes him a perfect person to conduct an investigation. In others, it makes him tremendously compromised in terms of conflict of interest. He has dedicated much of his life's work to this type of research. Would he want to produce findings that show that research of this type is dangerous and caused a global pandemic? What incentive structures are in place for him? I think it's worth asking. 2nd and 3rd link below show a summary of who he is and a reference to one of his cited papers (from 2013) where he was studying bat coronaviruses. His paper is also available as a link in the citations of the article.

None of this is direct evidence, sure. Bold claims do take bold evidence. Why is the claim that it disseminated from a wet market in Wuhan less bold than it coming out of the lab down the street that is known to contain these types of things? I take significant issue with the lab hypothesis being pushed out of the general discussion immediately. It is not controversial to state that it came from a wet market but it is controversial to state that leaking from a lab is a valid idea worth exploring. I just think the whole thing deserves a high level of skepticism and is a travesty to our public discourse that the lab leak idea has been pushed, from the beginning, as a "conspiracy theory". The fact that everyone has been proclaiming that it is a natural virus from a wet market is highly alarming, IMO.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9J4aEcuEGWs

https://www.organicconsumers.org/bl...rough-ecohealth-alliance-risky-virus-research

Engineered bat virus stirs debate over risky research

Click to expand...

lazarus said:

My point is "from a lab" accidental release is possible, but unlikely. Less likely than zoonotic transmission. Accidental lab releases happen way more often than we'd really like. But it is still rare considering how many labs there are. And lab releases from BSL-4 labs is extraordinarily rare (and I am not aware of any contagious release from one ever).

So we'd have an exceedingly rare event, from a previously unknown virus that has no evidence it has been tinkered with. That sure isn't impossible, but it is improbable. I don't think that should be dismissed out of hand. But it isn't something that is likely to be provable. Chinese government isn't going to provide the necessary access or evidence to prove that. They've already withheld information in the investigation. I don't view that is trying to hide it came from a lab. They'd do it anyway. That is how authoritarian governments work. They can't look bad. Incompetent response initially looks bad. So you hide and obscure and then you point fingers overseas.

Notice how they are claiming maybe it came from a US lab? Or failing that, maybe it came in to Wuhan on frozen/packaged foods. Probably came from some other country in to China. See, not our fault. Ignore our response no matter how it got here.

Click to expand...

28Shooter said:

"Common Sense Gun Control", "Social Justice", "For the Children", "Racism', and "White Privilege" are all now just Liberal dog whistles for when they have no facts, no evidence, and no substance to bring to a discussion of an issue.

Click to expand...

N3YMY said:

We need to use their own dog whistle against them.

Yes, gun control is racist. It often affects the populations that need access to firearms most (poor, those who cannot physically defend themselves, etc)...

Click to expand...

An interesting article within Reuters points out how the Democrats in congress are working with the White House to craft legislation to make “social media companies accountable for the spread of disinformation.” Or put another way…. The Democrats are attempting to eliminate any ability of those who disagree with them; or worse yet, would outline their corrupt endeavors.

Ultimately this level of control is a reaction to fear. So the logical question is: what exactly are they fearful of? Perhaps the answer is in alignment with the reason Democrats have surrounded the capital with military guards, fence and barbed-wire...

Click to expand...

lazarus said:

My point is "from a lab" accidental release is possible, but unlikely. Less likely than zoonotic transmission. Accidental lab releases happen way more often than we'd really like. But it is still rare considering how many labs there are. And lab releases from BSL-4 labs is extraordinarily rare (and I am not aware of any contagious release from one ever).

So we'd have an exceedingly rare event, from a previously unknown virus that has no evidence it has been tinkered with. That sure isn't impossible, but it is improbable. I don't think that should be dismissed out of hand. But it isn't something that is likely to be provable. Chinese government isn't going to provide the necessary access or evidence to prove that. They've already withheld information in the investigation. I don't view that is trying to hide it came from a lab. They'd do it anyway. That is how authoritarian governments work. They can't look bad. Incompetent response initially looks bad. So you hide and obscure and then you point fingers overseas.

Notice how they are claiming maybe it came from a US lab? Or failing that, maybe it came in to Wuhan on frozen/packaged foods. Probably came from some other country in to China. See, not our fault. Ignore our response no matter how it got here.

Click to expand...

Smallpox releases in Great Britain. Eradication of natural smallpox transmission made the prospect of reintroduction of the virus intolerable. This risk was clearly demonstrated in the United Kingdom. From 1963-78 the U.K. saw only four cases of smallpox (with no deaths) occurred that were imported by travelers from areas where smallpox was endemic. During this same period at least 80 cases and three deaths resulted from three separate escapes from two different accredited smallpox laboratories.

Click to expand...