Hogan Vetoed HB 1343 / SB 1000!

ironpony · May 25, 2019

I’m thinking Hogan’s veto is overturned, not liking this he says SD is G&S. But I think frosh can still smack his pee pee.

If this is a fight can Hogan win somehow? If he plans on running for another office I will need to see quite a bit before I have any confidence...

Mark75H · May 25, 2019

ironpony said:
I’m thinking Hogan’s veto is overturned, not liking this he says SD is G&S. But I think frosh can still smack his pee pee.

If this is a fight can Hogan win somehow? If he plans on running for another office I will need to see quite a bit before I have any confidence...

Just like someone other than Adrienne Jones becoming Speaker of the House of Delegates, I'll believe it when I see it

CrueChief · May 25, 2019

ironpony said:
I’m thinking Hogan’s veto is overturned, not liking this he says SD is G&S. But I think frosh can still smack his pee pee.

If this is a fight can Hogan win somehow? If he plans on running for another office I will need to see quite a bit before I have any confidence...

Under what grounds?

The laws doesnt define G&S. And gives The Secretary of State Police discretion of defining what that means. So frosh sues because the executive branch executes the power given by the legislature.

Biggfoot44 · May 25, 2019

Back @ #29 & similar ; from the beginning of W&C Permits in 1972 , both parties had the eventual option to appeal to the Circuit Court . MSP has rarely done so .

Could be a factor of relative amount of manhours and expense . Could be MSP not wanting to risk a pro- rights ruling to set binding presecenent .

But Crue Chief hit on the crux of the whole situation . Everything revolves around the Director of MSP .

The existing Statute does say " Good & Substantial " . The Director defines the guidelines . Jokingly , but not really , I have frequently suggested that as a starting point , everyone that lives, works, conducts business , or does volunteer activities anywhere inside Baltimore or PG Co would have greater need than average citizen, aka G&S .

AND , MSP has the authority to include Restrictions , but absolutely nothing requires Restrictions , MSP affirmatively decides to do so .If the head of MSP decided to , Tuesday morning, he could pick up his pen/ make phone call/ send memo to the effect that all W&C issued henceforth would be basic, and have no additional language .

F5guy · May 25, 2019

Biggfoot44 said:
Back @ #29 & similar ; from the beginning of W&C Permits in 1972 , both parties had the eventual option to appeal to the Circuit Court . MSP has rarely done so .

Could be a factor of relative amount of manhours and expense . Could be MSP not wanting to risk a pro- rights ruling to set binding presecenent .

But Crue Chief hit on the crux of the whole situation . Everything revolves around the Director of MSP .

The existing Statute does say " Good & Substantial " . The Director defines the guidelines . Jokingly , but not really , I have frequently suggested that as a starting point , everyone that lives, works, conducts business , or does volunteer activities anywhere inside Baltimore or PG Co would have greater need than average citizen, aka G&S .

AND , MSP has the authority to include Restrictions , but absolutely nothing requires Restrictions , MSP affirmatively decides to do so .If the head of MSP decided to , Tuesday morning, he could pick up his pen/ make phone call/ send memo to the effect that all W&C issued henceforth would be basic, and have no additional language .

So let’s call he governor or start a petition to replace the superintendent/director.

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rseymorejr · May 25, 2019

F5guy said:
Is my understanding that MSP could appeal any previous HPRB rulings to the courts but rarely did? What makes people think they’ll start appealing decisions now ?

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Spite

Biggfoot44 · May 25, 2019

That's what I was saying back when Bob was Governor .

Entirely do-able , but extremely unlikely . The media/ political response would be significant .

Stoveman · May 25, 2019

F5guy said:
Is my understanding that MSP could appeal any previous HPRB rulings to the courts but rarely did? What makes people think they’ll start appealing decisions now ?

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Occam said:
Until the law changed and gave them the runner-stamp route through the OAH, the court they’d have had to go to would have been much farther up the food chain. For more expensive and time consuming.

We think they’ll start challenging most/all HPRB spankings because they SAID they would. Alas.

Pre OAH the reason that MSP rarely appealed to Circuit Court is because the court gives great deference to review boards. Barring the violation of law by the board (like instructing MSP to give a permit to a prohibited person) it is my understanding that even if the judge would have ruled differently that the deference given rules the day.

The OAH on the other hand is a de novo hearing and of course the ALJs have been "trained up on the law" by the MSP. Why wouldn't they appeal every case?

By keeping the board intact it serves as a stark distinction between citizen oversight of the MSP LD specifically highlighting the fact that the LD is abusing the discretionary application of restrictions and the rubber stamp of the MSP trained OAH.

ironpony · May 26, 2019

CrueChief said:
Under what grounds?

The laws doesnt define G&S. And gives The Secretary of State Police discretion of defining what that means. So frosh sues because the executive branch executes the power given by the legislature.

My bad.

From mds I thought the governor was in charge of the MSP.

Biggfoot44 · May 26, 2019

The Secretary of MSP makes the decisions, and sets the polices . But the Secretary serves at the pleasure of the Governor . I had my dream scenario in mind back in the Erlich era .

Gov calls in the Secretary, and says I would like to see XYZ . If he hems and haws, and offers objection , then " thank you, your fired , send in the Assistant Secretary on your way out " . Repeat if necessary . There's enough reasonably competent ambitious upper level staffers that shouldn't take until lunchtime to select an appropriate new Acting Secretary .

danb · May 26, 2019

Frosh is the de facto head of the MSP, and directs their actions. W&C, Scary black rifle list, all of it. This wont be solved with HPRB appointments, an executive order, or more appeals. Anyone who thinks otherwise is not living in reality.

Not minimizing the situation, but such a tiny number of people even apply for W&C in a given year, you can probably fit them all in the clown car MSP drives to work. Hogan spun the veto as power grab blah blah because this issue affects only a miniscule number of people.

The Supreme Court will need to ream Frosh a new hole before we get change in MD. The good news, its happening as soon as next June (maybe earlier). By the time they override the veto in Jan, its will be a pointless vote we will have a good idea what the court is doing in NYSRPA and maybe some other cases. The HPRB is going away one way or the other. OAH will be required to uphold Supreme Court precedent, not Frosh's interpretation.

echo6mike · May 26, 2019

danb said:
The Supreme Court will need to ream Frosh a new hole before we get change in MD. The good news, its happening as soon as next June (maybe earlier).

I keep seeing people say this, with great confidence. Is there a thread around where I can read up on what the SC case(s) is/are that y’all are talking about, and why such confidence on the expected ruling and time frame?

Echo6mike, going mobile...

CrueChief · May 26, 2019

danb said:
Frosh is the de facto head of the MSP, and directs their actions. W&C, Scary black rifle list, all of it. This wont be solved with HPRB appointments, an executive order, or more appeals. Anyone who thinks otherwise is not living in reality.

Not minimizing the situation, but such a tiny number of people even apply for W&C in a given year, you can probably fit them all in the clown car MSP drives to work. Hogan spun the veto as power grab blah blah because this issue affects only a miniscule number of people.

The Supreme Court will need to ream Frosh a new hole before we get change in MD. The good news, its happening as soon as next June (maybe earlier). By the time they override the veto in Jan, its will be a pointless vote we will have a good idea what the court is doing in NYSRPA and maybe some other cases. The HPRB is going away one way or the other. OAH will be required to uphold Supreme Court precedent, not Frosh's interpretation.

This is only because lawn chair larry doesn't flex is tiny muscles. Would love to see how this could play out if the Governor actually acted like he was the Governor.

danb · May 26, 2019

echo6mike said:
I keep seeing people say this, with great confidence. Is there a thread around where I can read up on what the SC case(s) is/are that y’all are talking about, and why such confidence on the expected ruling and time frame?

Echo6mike, going mobile...

NYSRPA being heard on the merits Oct term:

https://www.scotusblog.com/case-fil...-association-inc-v-city-of-new-york-new-york/

These two are being held since 4/12 for NYSRPA:

https://www.supremecourt.gov/Search.aspx?FileName=/docket/docketfiles/html/public\18-663.html

https://www.supremecourt.gov/Search.aspx?FileName=/docket/docketfiles/html/public\18-843.html

and imminently we will find out about this case:

https://www.supremecourt.gov/search.aspx?filename=/docket/docketfiles/html/public/18-824.html

Which I think will be held as the above two are, or some possibility of an outright grant.

CrueChief said:
This is only because lawn chair larry doesn't flex is tiny muscles. Would love to see how this could play out if the Governor actually acted like he was the Governor.

people who say this trope for the last 5 years are so full of shit that they are qualified to actually run for office, and should!

F5guy · May 26, 2019

people who say this trope for the last 5 years are so full of shit that they are qualified to actually run for office, and should![/QUOTE]

ditto

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GTOGUNNER · May 26, 2019

13's should lighten up. Take a vacation.

CrueChief · May 26, 2019

Yeah glad to see that the dems aren't the only "people" of tolerance. :rolleyes:

ironpony · May 26, 2019

GTOGUNNER said:
13's should lighten up. Take a vacation.

I guess you mean me. Done, checking back in June.

Wow, a non-mod ban, my first.

PJDiesel · May 26, 2019

ironpony said:
I guess you mean me. Done, checking back in June.

Wow, a non-mod ban, my first.

June?

Your hearts not in it.....

ironpony · May 26, 2019

PJDiesel said:
June?

Your hearts not in it.....

was taken out in above post.

other post says only chance is SCOTUS in June ? I have nothing to offer and talk too much. Can't find my charcoal either!

Hogan Vetoed HB 1343 / SB 1000!

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