.308 precision discussion

Speed3 · Jan 4, 2019

Biggfoot44 said:
This is NOT a direct answer to the OP's question #1 . This is deep background to give him a sense of order of magnitude .

A decent quality, standard ( not Match ) .308 , using ammo of known accuracy potential , would be expected to do about 1.5in @100 yds . Give or take, rule of thumb . Sometimes better , but more than 2in with known accurate ammo would have you looking for problems with the rifle .

I've got a 16" dpms g2 that does a touch over an inch at 100 with fusion ammo.

I'm sure that we can figure out the issue rather quickly once we are in person. I'm by no means an expert but I've been around mid range shooting long enough to make mistakes I've learned from. I still will sit behind the firing line in fclass, and tell people to "move the belt buckle" as Ed taught me if the gun doesn't come back on target.

We all continue to learn and grow, I've been lucky to meet the nicest people shooting and dont mind helping somone else out if I can.

I wont be able to help much if it is rifle related, but clandestine would be my first pick. He's looked over a few of my rifles and they run great.

hobiecat590 · Jan 5, 2019

danb said:
"bolt" is just a figure of speech.

I was afraid of that. Using a cargo strap and some wedges work for the stock end, but taking the slop out at the forward end is more problematic.

Pinecone · Jan 5, 2019

As per the other discussion about a rifle in a different section.

Get some Federal Gold Medal Match ammo. Get together with someone here in MDS that shoots well. Have them shoot a group with your rifle. Then that will be your goal, it match that group.

If they can't make the rifle shoot a less than 1" at 100 yards, then have Chad look at the rifle, something is wrong.

If they shoot a 1" or smaller group, the rifle is fine, and it is you.

As you move out, it is a linear relationship. A 1" group at 100 yards, should be able to do a 2" group at 200, 3" at 300, etc.

hump368 · Jan 9, 2019

armed_economist said:
For bolt rifles, apparently the ones made today are all pretty accurate even at lower price points, the difference comes in fit and finish, action smoothness, etc.

I contemplated Mossberg mvp that takes AR mags, but many say it’s got a terribly sloppy action, although very precise.

Bought the Mossberg MVP 27738 for Xmas. It has a long bolt and there in lies the problem for new and inexperienced shooters. it has o be drawn back 100%, not 98.2%. I experienced this first hand last week at the range. The kick is very small for a .308. The shells on the ground are much larger than my wife's 9 MM from her Glock. The boom is not that much compared to our Mossberg 590a1 or our Marlin 30-30. I am not ready to make an evaluation since I have shoot it just one with 19 rounds.

Qbeam · Jan 9, 2019

OP (Ras),

Have you had any progress on this?

Q

lazarus · Jan 9, 2019

DaemonAssassin said:
E.Shell said it best and heed his advice.

What I can add is that if you have a well built rifle, you can get sub-MOA with FGMM, even though it may have a $125 barrel that is chambered in 308 on it. But then again when I assembled it, I did lap the upper, so that may have helped somewhat. Granted when the owner of the rifle shot it for the first time, he was seeing 6-8" at 100 yards, because he hasn't shot a rifle for almost 50 years! Let's say this much. The owner of the rifle last shot a M14 in Asia, then was handed a original M16, but received no instruction on how to use it or clean it.

Realistically, I'm in the pursuit of a accurate 308 gas gun build, of which I am already half way done. I've bounced around with barrels so much, I've decided that I'll be going with a 18" Criterion or DMPS SASS barrel for this. I'll also be adding a SLR block to if, because eventually, I'll be getting a can for it too. My goal is 1/2 MOA, but I'll be happy if I make it to 3/4 MOA for this build.

As for gas guns in general, I know numerous AR-15's that were built with non-match parts, that shoot sub-MOA with insane consistency, that it is flat out boring to shoot them, and I know of a few that are chambered in 300BLK...

Raises hand. All my ARs are non-matching parts, not accuraized and assembled by me. My 20” AR-15 at about $800 including optic shoots .7MOA with the right ammo (but it is ammo sensitive). My 16” with 3 MOA red dot and 3x magnifier and a $40 barrel won’t do better than 2.5MOA no matter I feed it, but it shoots 2.5MOA with basically EVERYTHING (crappy steel case ammo it shoots 3 MOA). My 18” 6.5 grendel AR-15 and a 3-9x40 scope shoots 6MOA with steel cased ammo...but it shoots 1MOA with Hornady anything and .9MOA with federal fusion (looking forward to trying handloads and maybe Federal 130gr Berger loads) and the whole thing cost me $500 to build (about to be $580 as I am dropping a LaRue trigger in to it tomorrow).

Work on taking your time. Use support if you can when shooting. Standing unsupported even with a scope I can shoot much better than 6MOA, or 6” groups at 100yds. If I use my sling for support I can generally get that down to 4” groups, but I know I’ll still have a flier once in awhile. A good trigger helps a TON when shooting off hand. The difference between a really good trigger and a crappy one on the bench (for me anyway) might be the difference between a 1” group and a 1.1” group. But unsupported and a good trigger might be a 4” group and a crappy one a 6” group.

lazarus · Jan 9, 2019

Pinecone said:
As per the other discussion about a rifle in a different section.

Get some Federal Gold Medal Match ammo. Get together with someone here in MDS that shoots well. Have them shoot a group with your rifle. Then that will be your goal, it match that group.

If they can't make the rifle shoot a less than 1" at 100 yards, then have Chad look at the rifle, something is wrong.

If they shoot a 1" or smaller group, the rifle is fine, and it is you.

As you move out, it is a linear relationship. A 1" group at 100 yards, should be able to do a 2" group at 200, 3" at 300, etc.

I would add, so long as you can see the target. With a scope and especially one with relatively fine cross hairs that shouldn’t be much of an issue and the “minimum” for reasonably accurate shooting if your eye sight is okay is generally given as 1x per 100yds. So a 6x scope has an effective max range of 600yds before your target is getting too small for accurate fire.

It’s a rule of thumb, it doesn’t mean a 6x scope can work fine at 800yds and what works well for one person might not for another. Me personally that rule of thumb is my minimum. I like 2x per 100yds. So for 600yd shots I’d really want a 12x scope.

Most open sights my fine accuracy drops off after 100yds. With a peep sight and a very fine front blade and a high contrast target I am good to 300yds. I CAN bang man sized steel targets at 500yds with irons so long as I have them dialed right, but I also know darned well I’ll generate a lot of misses. 300yds and I am probably keeping most of my shots on steel if the rifle is accurate enough and shooting prone or from the bench. With any scope 3x or better it’ll be 100% at 300yds unless I sneeze.

Moorvogi · Jan 9, 2019

ras_oscar said:
I have a gas gun in .308 (AR 10). From other threads on this forum I have concluded that there are limitations on how precise I can expect it to be. Presently I am the weak link and plan to work to close up my groups. I am consistently shooting 8" groups at 100 yards. Once I close that down I plan to move out to 200 yards.

1. How close can I reasonably expect groups at 100 yards to become in order to say I have mastered that distance and have reached the limitations of the firearm?

2. When I move out to 200 yards, would the expected mastery group be 4X the 100 yard number( IE 2"at 100 yards=4" at 200 yards)or something else?

3. I am also considering a .308 bolt gun in the distant future. I don't mind spending for quality but want to get my moneys worth. Any thoughts on the following 3 manufacturers for a long range target (beyond 200 yards) shooter? Savage, Remington 700, Mossberg MVP.

Humble yourself and attend a PROJECT APPLESEED event. I thought I knew how to shoot until i took one of these. They teach you to shoot a 4MOA group at 100yards.. standing, sitting, prone. Sure.. it's simulated at 25 yards but that means you can use a 22 and not worry about drop or wind (as much).

i went from effective range of 200yards against man sized target.. to 400 yards w/ a 250 yard head shot.. in the first two day course. The second time i took the course, i took rifleman.

it's humbling.. and rewarding. also, i'm glad someone admits to being the weak link. this.. is the first step to learning how to shoot, instead of blaming the firearm all the time.

also, for what it's worth.. i have a "budget rifle" which is a ruger american in 308. and i get sub moa groups w/ 110gr varmageddon rounds or 168gr a-max rounds. it's about practice.. and STEPS to making a shot.

aim small, miss small.

Moorvogi · Jan 9, 2019

ras_oscar said:
Any thoughts on the following 3 manufacturers for a long range target (beyond 200 yards) shooter? Savage, Remington 700, Mossberg MVP.

Core shooting lessons.. Ruger American in 308 can do 1000y all day.. with practice.

Swaim13 · Jan 9, 2019

OP: If you are at Hap Baker, I am there all the time. I can let you try shooting my 22 or 223 bolt guns and see if that helps you narrow down items as well.

OLM-Medic · Jan 9, 2019

Moorvogi said:
Core shooting lessons.. Ruger American in 308 can do 1000y all day.. with practice.

It sure can

Qbeam · Jan 9, 2019

If you are in the Annapolis region, I can try to help.

Q

kingfish · Jan 9, 2019

If you’re shooting 8” groups at 100 yds, you’ve got a terrible rifle or you need thicker glasses Either way, you got a problem that needs fixing. I can do better than that with ww2 surplus rifles
A precision rifle with good glass should have holes touching at 100 yds.

rgramjet · Jan 9, 2019

I shot my buddy's LAR 8 once. Dead bull at 100 with a Leopold 3-9×40.

I was happy.

Speed3 · Jan 9, 2019

OP my offer still stands, PM me if you're interested. Everyone always claims they shoot 1/100th MOA but when it comes down to it we all have issues trying to shoot "perfect groups" and most dont shoot as well as they claim, imagine that lol.

I helped another member a few years ago who couldn't get his scope mounted right, it was a mossberg MVP combo woth a scope. Took it to the range and got everything worked out and it ended up shooting really well.

I'm by NO MEANS an expert shot but people have helped me TONS and it shortens the learning curve a great deal.

ras_oscar · Jan 10, 2019

Thank for all your input. Sorry for going silent, certainly not meant as disrespect. My plan from here is:

1. Obtain a supply of Match ammo (ordered Federal gold in 168 and 175 last night)
2. Shoot it and see where I am with no other adjustments
3. PM Speed3 and arrange a meet up in Frederick to find out what I am doing wrong. As stated in my OP, I truly believe its me, but another finger on the trigger with known good ammo should help eliminate other possibilities.

DaemonAssassin · Jan 10, 2019

ras_oscar said:
Thank for all your input. Sorry for going silent, certainly not meant as disrespect. My plan from here is:

1. Obtain a supply of Match ammo (ordered Federal gold in 168 and 175 last night)
2. Shoot it and see where I am with no other adjustments
3. PM Speed3 and arrange a meet up in Frederick to find out what I am doing wrong. As stated in my OP, I truly believe its me, but another finger on the trigger with known good ammo should help eliminate other possibilities.

Depending on the rifle and the pattern it is, you may be able to swap lowers to see if a better trigger would help you.

Even so, practice, practice, practice.

E.Shell · Jan 10, 2019

ras_oscar said:
Thank for all your input. Sorry for going silent, certainly not meant as disrespect. My plan from here is:

1. Obtain a supply of Match ammo (ordered Federal gold in 168 and 175 last night)
2. Shoot it and see where I am with no other adjustments
3. PM Speed3 and arrange a meet up in Frederick to find out what I am doing wrong. As stated in my OP, I truly believe its me, but another finger on the trigger with known good ammo should help eliminate other possibilities.

Switch items #2 and #2 and you're on the right track.

Reasoning: Why buy great ammo to use to potentially repeat the same technical mistake(s)? Take Speed3 and your shiny new ammo to the range TOGETHER and just handle the problem in one step.

The AR packages, both AR-15 and the AR-10 are very challenging to shoot well because they provide so much enticement, and are so extremely sensitive, to bad habits.

Most notably:
1) Most people take a death grip on the pistol "grip" and put an obscene amount of influence on the POI without realizing it. Every nuance of pressure you put on the rifle arrives on target with your bullet - its either consistent or not. If you can't repeat the operation exactly the same way each time, stop doing it that way.
2) Comb height is usually 'one size fits all' (uhh, its 'standard') and one either is too low and floats, or too high and pushes against the stock. This is exacerbated by all the stupid QD this and see-thru that mounting systems sold by Barnum & Baily and others capitalizing on this Swiss Army knife precision/defensive platform. Yeah, you can buy knobbies to fit your Low Rider....should you?
3) The hinge effect from the upper/lower connection is extremely sensitive to lateral pressure, which is related to position, a much misunderstood subject.

Of course, there's more...but I have seen more than one well-handled 16" AR-10 put 5 consecutive shots on a 24 x 33" plate at 1,200 yards. Had one fellow shoot a 10" group, followed by a 15" group, neither one all that shabby for a 16" gun shooting factory ammo.

Very often, I can spot critical errors from 20 feet away...things can be THAT obvious if you know what to look for. "You don't know what you don't know." is something I have heard from students 100 times and there's just no way around that concept.

Please let Speed3 help you get on top of this.

danb · Jan 10, 2019

ras_oscar said:
Thank for all your input. Sorry for going silent, certainly not meant as disrespect. My plan from here is:

1. Obtain a supply of Match ammo (ordered Federal gold in 168 and 175 last night)
2. Shoot it and see where I am with no other adjustments
3. PM Speed3 and arrange a meet up in Frederick to find out what I am doing wrong. As stated in my OP, I truly believe its me, but another finger on the trigger with known good ammo should help eliminate other possibilities.

My only other suggestion is to take a set of backup sights (iron, red dot) or something so that you can eliminate the scope possibility.

I also tend to agree with the above post: Why waste expensive ammo. 8" groups at 100 yrds are not caused by ammo. I can do better than 1/2 that with a stock $600 rifle and Wolf ammo. I once had a guy at the range take my rifle and shoot 50% better than me with cheap factory ammo, proving that it was me not the rifle or ammo. You should be getting 2-3" @100yds or better with cheap factory ammo (i.e. Wolf). It's likely something build-related (including scope/mount), or technique. I would use inexpensive ammo until you figure out the problem and save your $ for whatever needs to be fixed.

ras_oscar · Jan 10, 2019

I don't want to waste valuable time of the members who graciously offer to help me by bringing only my unknown ( to you) reloaded ammo. That's why I am obtaining the recommended chow first.

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