Arisaka with interesting markings

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  • KH195

    Ultimate Member
    Jan 10, 2013
    1,550
    Virginia
    interesting. That one has the same kind of hastily machined bolt knob so the bolt on this one was probably just turned down. I thought it might have been machined to the cylinder shape from the more round shape you see on most of them.

    Yeah the "barrel" shaped bolt knob is a late war feature that several of the Arsenals used (Nagoya and Jinsen for example) while others (Like Kokura and Toyo Kogyo) used the rounder/plum shape through the end of the war. Both style knobs appeared on the Naval specials.
     

    budman93

    Ultimate Member
    Mar 1, 2013
    5,267
    Frederick County
    I'm late to the game on this one (been traveling), but great gun budman! Indeed a Naval "Special Type" 99 and nice example of a true late war / last ditch gun. This variation of T99 is very sought after in the Japanese collecting community. Production likely started in 1944 and was believed to have been made at training rifle facilities at Yokosuka Naval Arsenal.

    Data on these is sparse in the book Military Rifles of Japan, seems there weren't many examples available at the time to get good data on serial ranges/ features. Looks like that one falls into the "early" feature category, but the serial number is right around the time features started changing (the serial number is actually the number on the right, the number to the left is like an assembly number used for matching parts).

    As metalman mentioned, I too have a little bit of doubt that the gun stands now as issued. To my knowledge all rifles had the black paint applied, and aside from the designated snipers, bolt handles were not turned down on issued guns. The finish does look strange as well, but as you mentioned we are talking end of the war so anything is definitely possible! Do you know the circumstances under which the vet acquired it? If he didn't make any changes to it himself it's possible another vet modified/customized it then traded/sold it before coming back to the states. As for the markings on the stock, the two rightmost characters are "3" and "2". The one on the left, at least from what I see at a quick glance at my books could either be the kana symbol "fu" as used to designate 32nd series on Toyo Koygo rifles or a Jinsen Arsenal plant inspection mark. Since neither one of those would make sense on this gun, it could very easily have another meaning as well! I would recommend posting it up over in the Japanese section on Gunboards if you have an account there, those guys are the real experts and could tell you exactly what is/is not original on it. Great and VERY hard to find gun either way!

    I do not know the exact circumstances in which he acquired it. All I now is he brought it back when he came home after the war. It could have been modified by someone else before he got it. He doesn't say much about it but if I remember right from the few times he has said anything he was involved in fighting on Okinawa and later spent some time on the Japanese mainland. As far as the fighting goes, all he told me was that he was issued an M1 Garand that had a big patch of rust/pitting in the barrel but it never failed him when he needed it.

    I don't recall if there were any more markings on the underside of the stock. I wish I had the gun to check but maybe I'll get to take another look at it next time we visit my family.
     
    Jul 1, 2012
    5,711
    That cylinder shape is typical for late-war bolts so it's probably the right bolt, just bent (oops, too slow once gain KH195 scooped me).
    I've seen a couple of these sell in the $600-700 range but vaguely remember one going for over $1k.
    For the OP rifle, the condition is a killer on value.
     

    KH195

    Ultimate Member
    Jan 10, 2013
    1,550
    Virginia
    That cylinder shape is typical for late-war bolts so it's probably the right bolt, just bent (oops, too slow once gain KH195 scooped me).
    I've seen a couple of these sell in the $600-700 range but vaguely remember one going for over $1k.
    For the OP rifle, the condition is a killer on value.

    I second that price range, there was one on Gunbroker earlier this summer (just looked it's too old to show up under completed listings unfortunately), it was listed as an "Arisaka Training Rifle", seller clearly had no clue what it was. It was in great shape, late variation and I think it ended up going for ~$870. I was hoping it would slip under the radar but there were several stalkers like myself that waited until the end to bid but had deeper wallets than I did. I would bet it would have topped 1k had it been advertised properly for what it was.
     

    budman93

    Ultimate Member
    Mar 1, 2013
    5,267
    Frederick County
    I second that price range, there was one on Gunbroker earlier this summer (just looked it's too old to show up under completed listings unfortunately), it was listed as an "Arisaka Training Rifle", seller clearly had no clue what it was. It was in great shape, late variation and I think it ended up going for ~$870. I was hoping it would slip under the radar but there were several stalkers like myself that waited until the end to bid but had deeper wallets than I did. I would bet it would have topped 1k had it been advertised properly for what it was.

    So what would you estimate this one at with the altered bolt handle and what you know about it?
     

    KH195

    Ultimate Member
    Jan 10, 2013
    1,550
    Virginia
    So what would you estimate this one at with the altered bolt handle and what you know about it?

    Very tough to say unfortunately. The people willing to shell out the big bucks for one of these would probably want it it high condition just like any other area of collecting focus. Most beginner Japanese collectors aren't even going to know what it is let alone what to look for on them.

    The bent handle isn't really an issue, that can be straightened out easily by someone that knows what they are doing. There are a couple members on Gunboards that offer that service pretty cheap for bent Arisaka bolts. The big value hit comes in with the metal and possibly stock finishes. Worst case scenario the paint has been stripped and stock sanded/refinished I would throw a wild a$$ guess of ~$300-$375 if it were to go on auction like Gunbroker properly advertised, probably to be bought by someone looking for parts or to fill a hole in a collection until a better one shows up. That's just a guess though, could easily swing quite a bit either way.

    I'm still going back and forth on that stock though, the more I look at it the more I think it could be the original finish. It's the correct one piece stock (vs. the traditional two piece with the dovetail splice on the regular T99), and since they were basically made by training rifle companies there very might not be a "normal" on them. If the stock is untouched and the only real issue is the stripped black paint, I would up the WAG to around $400-500. Still probably going to take the experts to give it a look for a better overall eval though.
     

    metalman3006

    Gun Hoarder
    Sep 6, 2007
    2,305
    Church Hill, MD
    Shouldn't the stock at the wrist have more chatter on it?

    Very tough to say unfortunately. The people willing to shell out the big bucks for one of these would probably want it it high condition just like any other area of collecting focus. Most beginner Japanese collectors aren't even going to know what it is let alone what to look for on them.

    The bent handle isn't really an issue, that can be straightened out easily by someone that knows what they are doing. There are a couple members on Gunboards that offer that service pretty cheap for bent Arisaka bolts. The big value hit comes in with the metal and possibly stock finishes. Worst case scenario the paint has been stripped and stock sanded/refinished I would throw a wild a$$ guess of ~$300-$375 if it were to go on auction like Gunbroker properly advertised, probably to be bought by someone looking for parts or to fill a hole in a collection until a better one shows up. That's just a guess though, could easily swing quite a bit either way.

    I'm still going back and forth on that stock though, the more I look at it the more I think it could be the original finish. It's the correct one piece stock (vs. the traditional two piece with the dovetail splice on the regular T99), and since they were basically made by training rifle companies there very might not be a "normal" on them. If the stock is untouched and the only real issue is the stripped black paint, I would up the WAG to around $400-500. Still probably going to take the experts to give it a look for a better overall eval though.
     
    Jul 1, 2012
    5,711
    Not necessarily...
    The first Special Navy's may have been as early as 1942/43... this is an earlier one.
    Really outside my comfort zone though - need the heavy hitters on Gunboards (the Banzai Guys) to weigh in...
     

    KH195

    Ultimate Member
    Jan 10, 2013
    1,550
    Virginia
    Shouldn't the stock at the wrist have more chatter on it?

    Not necessarily...
    The first Special Navy's may have been as early as 1942/43... this is an earlier one.
    Really outside my comfort zone though - need the heavy hitters on Gunboards (the Banzai Guys) to weigh in...

    The "chatter" at the wrist seems to vary substantially based on arsenal too. Mid/late war Kokura stocks are known for often having heavy chatter (and many times can be spotted easily from a distance because of it) whereas I've had a few pretty late Nagoyas (well into the 11th series) that were silky smooth at the wrist.
     
    Jul 1, 2012
    5,711
    The "chatter" at the wrist seems to vary substantially based on arsenal too. Mid/late war Kokura stocks are known for often having heavy chatter (and many times can be spotted easily from a distance because of it) whereas I've had a few pretty late Nagoyas (well into the 11th series) that were silky smooth at the wrist.

    There's no "thanks" option here, but thanks!
     

    mawkie

    C&R Whisperer
    Sep 28, 2007
    4,337
    Catonsville
    Contact Don Voigt, author of The Japanese Type 99 reference book, over on GB. He makes reproduction parts, repairs broken FPs and straightens bent bolts. This one is certainly worth the effort, esp. if the bolt is matching.
    Congrats on a good find!
     

    budman93

    Ultimate Member
    Mar 1, 2013
    5,267
    Frederick County
    Contact Don Voigt, author of The Japanese Type 99 reference book, over on GB. He makes reproduction parts, repairs broken FPs and straightens bent bolts. This one is certainly worth the effort, esp. if the bolt is matching.
    Congrats on a good find!

    Thanks but unfortunately it doesn't belong to me so I can't do anything with it. Maybe I'll be able to get it someday.

    I did post over on gunboards in the japanese section but apparently the threads are hidden until approved and it hasn't been yet.
     

    KH195

    Ultimate Member
    Jan 10, 2013
    1,550
    Virginia
    How long does it normally take for them to approve a thread?

    My first one took about a full day for them to approve (your first two or three posts from what I remember need mod approval so the can weed out the spammers). Mods may be taking an extra long Thanksgiving break if you are still waiting....
     

    budman93

    Ultimate Member
    Mar 1, 2013
    5,267
    Frederick County
    My first one took about a full day for them to approve (your first two or three posts from what I remember need mod approval so the can weed out the spammers). Mods may be taking an extra long Thanksgiving break if you are still waiting....

    I guess so. It's been a couple days now.
     

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