AWB 2018 and grandfathering

GlocksAndPatriots · Feb 28, 2018

j_h_smith said:
Lets say you fix all of the problems YOU feel are wrong with the NICS, how do you stop these otherwise law abiding citizens from doing really bad things? Scrap the NICS system and set up your very own system, how would you have stopped these murders?

How does any system stop these murders? None of the murders were on anyone's radar BEFORE they committed these horrendous crimes. They couldn't be on anyone's list of prohibited persons because by all standards, there was nothing wrong with them.

I did read your posts, that's why we're still having this conversation. Can you comprehend mine?

How can you say that? Are you saying there was nothing wrong with a person mutilating animals and putting the videos on Youtube? Or bragging about being a professional school shooter?

j_h_smith · Feb 28, 2018

TexDefender said:
My point was, I don't think you can in all situations. Maybe that will make clear to you.

Have you ever heard of the Blackstone's Formulation? It's a cornerstone of our judicial system.

GlocksAndPatriots · Feb 28, 2018

j_h_smith said:
Forced institutionalize for what? Of the 11 mass shootings, there was nothing to report. What is your criteria for having someone institutionalized? You keep painting your argument with a broad stroke. Talk about specifics please.

Yes, there was. All of those people would have been locked up in the past.

1841DNG · Feb 28, 2018

People keep demanding increased background checks without specifying what else they would be checking for. I am sure a lot of them don't know what the current check involves either.

j_h_smith · Feb 28, 2018

GlocksAndPatriots said:
How can you say that? Are you saying there was nothing wrong with a person mutilating animals and putting the videos on Youtube? Or bragging about being a professional school shooter?

You have such a knack of taking your arguments from one end of the earth to the other. Who said anything about mutilating animals and putting the videos on Youtube? Where did that come from?

Tell me how any system could have stopped those 11 mass shootings we WERE talking about.

WOW, you are starting to ramble now.

TexDefender · Feb 28, 2018

j_h_smith said:
You have such a knack of taking your arguments from one end of the earth to the other. Who said anything about mutilating animals and putting the videos on Youtube? Where did that come from?

Tell me how any system could have stopped those 11 mass shootings we WERE talking about.

WOW, you are starting to ramble now.

I thought we were talking about preventing people like Cruz from getting a weapon thru the use of NCIS. You brought in the 11 other mass shootings.

j_h_smith · Feb 28, 2018

GlocksAndPatriots said:
Yes, there was. All of those people would have been locked up in the past.

Would you please like to explain? Do you now anything about these mass shootings? Care to tell me how Edmond Post Office shooter could have been stopped? What circumstances would have allowed him to be arrested or put away before he committed these crimes?

How can you stop a home grown terrorist like the San Bernadino shooter? Please explain how he should have been institutionalized before he attacked those people.

What forewarnings were evident by the Day Trader who killed his family with a hammer than proceeded to kill others with a firearm? What system/check/balances would have prevented his crimes?

I can keep going. It's easy for you to throw out your opinion, but when asked to back up your position, you just take the conversation into another direction.

1841DNG · Feb 28, 2018

Skimming that bill now I am sure glad that they want to save us from those barrel shrouds and threaded barrels. Not burning my hand on a hot barrel sure is dangerous. Seriously though it always strikes me as bizarre that ergonomic features are put in the same list of "scary things" as grenade launchers.

TexDefender · Feb 28, 2018

1841DNG said:
Skimming that bill now I am sure glad that they want to save us from those barrel shrouds and threaded barrels. Not burning my hand on a hot barrel sure is dangerous. Seriously though it always strikes me as bizarre that ergonomic features are put in the same list of "scary things" as grenade launchers.

Kind of like the Maryland safe gun act of 2013, if it looks like a military style weapons or was simulated in Call of Duty ban it!

j_h_smith · Feb 28, 2018

TexDefender said:
I thought we were talking about preventing people like Cruz from getting a weapon thru the use of NCIS. You brought in the 11 other mass shootings.

There were comments from another member who dictated that mass shooting could be prevented by forcibly institutionalizing folks and I brought up the fact that of the 22 mass shootings in the last 40 years, there were no warnings to prevent those shooting. There would have been no indications that these people/animals would have committed these crimes, therefore there would be no background check that would have caused them to be prohibited.

lonewolf220 · Feb 28, 2018

TexDefender said:
But Prisons are paid for by tax payers, we need them to hold repeat offenders do we not?

Yeah and prisons are overcrowded. Prisoners in some states are being released early because of overcrowding. So we clearly aren’t willing to pay for them. What makes you think that mental institutions will be different?

lonewolf220 · Feb 28, 2018

GlocksAndPatriots said:
How can you say that? Are you saying there was nothing wrong with a person mutilating animals and putting the videos on Youtube? Or bragging about being a professional school shooter?

And people reported that to FBI or local law enforcement. They then dropped the ball. So they should figure out how he fell through the cracks and what they need to fix to prevent it from happening again. That may mean change in leadership or hiring more staff. But that doesn’t mean we need some new background check system or forced institutionalizations.

GlocksAndPatriots · Feb 28, 2018

j_h_smith said:
You have such a knack of taking your arguments from one end of the earth to the other. Who said anything about mutilating animals and putting the videos on Youtube? Where did that come from?

Tell me how any system could have stopped those 11 mass shootings we WERE talking about.

WOW, you are starting to ramble now.

Cruz did that! The warning signs were there for every one of these shooters, except for Paddock.

GlocksAndPatriots · Feb 28, 2018

j_h_smith said:
There were comments from another member who dictated that mass shooting could be prevented by forcibly institutionalizing folks and I brought up the fact that of the 22 mass shootings in the last 40 years, there were no warnings to prevent those shooting. There would have been no indications that these people/animals would have committed these crimes, therefore there would be no background check that would have caused them to be prohibited.

Saying that there were no warning signs doesn't make it true.

GlocksAndPatriots · Feb 28, 2018

lonewolf220 said:
And people reported that to FBI or local law enforcement. They then dropped the ball. So they should figure out how he fell through the cracks and what they need to fix to prevent it from happening again. That may mean change in leadership or hiring more staff. But that doesn’t mean we need some new background check system or forced institutionalizations.

And if the FBI had done its job, what could it have done if it couldn't get him forcibly committed?

TexDefender · Feb 28, 2018

lonewolf220 said:
Yeah and prisons are overcrowded. Prisoners in some states are being released early because of overcrowding. So we clearly aren’t willing to pay for them. What makes you think that mental institutions will be different?

Well we constantly saying we need to lock these people up and the sentences need to be enforced. So are you saying we need to just give up? I agree that that FBI and local law enforcement dropped the ball. I personally think the Sheriff office carries the bulk of the blame in my mind. I think "glockandpatriots" advocating plugging the current background check system. As far as institutionalizations, I too can see a purpose for them.

lonewolf220 · Feb 28, 2018

TexDefender said:
Well we constantly saying we need to lock these people up and the sentences need to be enforced. So are you saying we need to just give up? I agree that that FBI and local law enforcement dropped the ball. I personally think the Sheriff office carries the bulk of the blame in my mind. I think "glockandpatriots" advocating plugging the current background check system. As far as institutionalizations, I too can see a purpose for them.

No what I’m saying is people need to do some soul searching when it comes to taxes. People want all this stuff but seem to think it won’t cost anything. Guess what, it costs money. So if that’s what you want to advocate for then you better be willing to support a politician that will raise your taxes

BradMacc82 · Feb 28, 2018

GlocksAndPatriots said:
And if the FBI had done its job, what could it have done if it couldn't get him forcibly committed?

Are you ****ing kidding me?!?

If the Feds, or Local LE had done their ****ing jobs and followed up on his threats/posts, the firearms would've been removed from his possession and he would've been monitored - at the least. The firearms would've been held/logged into secured storage.

Would that have stopped Cruz from committing some act of violence? Possibly. Maybe he would've just cooked up a VBIED and bombed the place instead - then the numbers of injured/killed would be many times what they were. Hell, could've just chained the exterior doors and set fire to the place. With that many students in one place, that could've been a true disaster.

With Cruz, there were definitive indicators he was intent on doing harm. The Feds and the locals dropped the ****ing ball, simply put.

Boondock Saint · Feb 28, 2018

I think one of the the largest disconnects between people who actually love and embrace freedom and those who would rather someone else (generally the government) take care of certain things for them is that one group understands that man is imperfect, that evil exists in this world, and that neither fact will ever change. Given those two truths, there will always be danger in this world, and bad things will happen to good people. I don't like it any more than anyone else, but I recognize that there's very little that can be done about it. Restricting access to the very tools that good people can use to defend themselves against imperfect and evil people simply isn't the answer. If it was, gun control would have proven itself at some point over the course of the last 84 years.

The illusion of safety and security is all that you'll get by restricting the freedom of good people, and in fact you'll be less safe and secure in doing it. No one wins there, except reptiles.

It's feelings vs. facts, and facts are stubborn things. You don't have to like it, but you do have to live with it. The idea that people are somehow less safe with well-trained, well-armed sheepdogs among them is the work of idiots who eschew logic for emotion and reptiles who gladly promulgate the narrative to get closer to their end goal - yet more control over free men and women.

lonewolf220 · Feb 28, 2018

GlocksAndPatriots said:
And if the FBI had done its job, what could it have done if it couldn't get him forcibly committed?

If they determined that he wasn’t a threat (doubtful but who knows) then he should have been on the street. If they don’t have the evidence to arrest and charge someone I’m not willing to say “well just in case we’ll put them in an institution”. That path results in way to many innocent people being denied their rights

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