starting reloading for long range rifle

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  • ras_oscar

    Ultimate Member
    Apr 23, 2014
    1,666
    I've been reloading for about 10 years, all handgun calibers. For me handgun accuracy is less important than whether the round will function reliably in all my firearms. I have very recently entered the world of long range rifle shooting. Had some startup accuracy challenges with the hardware which Speed3 was kind enough to help me sort out with a range day. The hardware is fine. I want to begin the process of reloading highly accurate ammo for MY rifle.

    Lest I flood the forum with newbie type questions, is there a standard reference/technical discussion on the science and art of developing a high precision load for long distance rifle shooting? I have the standard reloading data manuals ( Lee, Hornady, Lyman). I know Richard Lee talks a lot in the front of his manual about a lot of things, not sure that info is still up to date.

    This is a duplicity of a question I tagged onto the end of another thread. Moving it here to increase visibility.
     
    Last edited:

    rbird7282

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 6, 2012
    18,531
    Columbia
    I've been reloading for about 10 years, all handgun calibers. For me handgun accuracy is less important than whether the round will function reliably in all my firearms. I have very recently entered the world of long range rifle shooting. Had some startup accuracy challenges with the hardware which Speed3 was kind enough to help me sort out with a range day. The hardware is fine. I want to begin the process of reloading highly accurate ammo for MY rifle.

    Lest I flood the forum with newbie type questions, is there a standard reference/technical discussion on the science and art of developing a high precision load for long distance rifle shooting? I have the standard reloading data manuals ( Lee, Hornady, Lyman). I know Richard Lee talks a lot in the front of his manual about a lot of things, not sure that info is still up to date.

    This is a duplicity of a question I tagged onto the end of another thread. Breaking it out here to increase visibility.



    Do a search of posts by Ed Shell here on MDS. He’s forgotten more about long range shooting/reloading than most people will ever know lol.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     

    bigcountry

    Active Member
    Jan 4, 2013
    105
    Carroll County
    There are so many methods, its crazy. Don't go crazy at first trying specialized method like audette ladder method, or reaming cases, moly, trying to load .003" off the lands.

    Start at starting loads, with a recommend COL, and step up in .5 or 1gr increments. Look for pressure signs. Shoot 2 3 shot groups or 5 shot. Let the gun cool 10min between.

    But one thing I have learned over the years, is watch for concentricity of your laoded bullets. Anything over .003" of wobble can affect accuracy. Also, watch for shooting your brass too much, trying to get extended life. Anything over 3 you will start to get the dreaded donut at the neck junction.
     

    kooJoe

    Member
    Sep 23, 2013
    26
    near cambridge
    Big country hit the nail on the head. Try your best to not ‘analysis paralysis’ this rabbit hole you are getting ready to venture down. Atleast at first.

    My thoughts.... Make your mind up as to what direction you want to take this, a) shooting paper, or b) shooting animals. Doing some very basic handloading techniques without all the bells and whistles will get you really good results... and keep it fun.

    Ive been hand loading rifle rounds for fifteen years. Ive been crop damage shooting for about that long as well. The majority of my kills are between 500 yards and 1000. We shoot many deer. I have never once annealed brass or bought a gauge to measure cartridge length at the bullet ogive. I have never once ****ed with charting nodes, making graphs etc. Just common sense and practice will go a long way.

    Make sure you keep it fun.
     

    E.Shell

    Ultimate Member
    Feb 5, 2007
    10,244
    Mid-Merlind
    IMO its ALL in neck tension
    ^^^ This. One of my students is former VA State F-Class champ and coaches the VA State team and he anneals EVERY time.

    Guys, long range precision handloading varies from standard mid/close range work in that velocity variations that are invisible at 100-200-500 yards are UGLY at 1k or more. One must really be careful to control velocity deviation to keep drop from becoming inconsistent.

    If you expect success, you really cannot "keep it simple".

    The F-class X-ring is 5" and is shot as far as 1,000 yards. Run the numbers on your ballistic program and see that a velocity change of only 12-14 fps takes you from the center of the X out to the 10 ring...

    This means that handloads should use the OCW method (similar to Creighton Audette's Ladder Method) of load development and care should be taken with any steps that affect velocity.

    Staying below maximum (for your individual rifle and components) is important from a safety aspect, but unless you test to the limit, you will probably not find a stable load, since most of the best OCW loads for any given cartridge will be close to maximum in your rifle. "Book Max" is not necessarily safe in your rifle, nor is it automatically unsafe. Only proper testing will determine maximum levels in your rifle with your particular components.

    Know that controlling powder charges to 1/100th or even to 1/10th is NOT the only answer and if you find yourself chasing crap like that, you're wasting your time and not getting the most from your gear. If your load is in the OCW zone, minor variations are absorbed and I have won plenty of long range matches with ammo that varied by as much as 3 tenths of a grain.

    http://www.shell-central.com/Powder1.html
     

    Speed3

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 19, 2011
    7,816
    MD
    ^^^ This. One of my students is former VA State F-Class champ and coaches the VA State team and he anneals EVERY time.

    Guys, long range precision handloading varies from standard mid/close range work in that velocity variations that are invisible at 100-200-500 yards are UGLY at 1k or more. One must really be careful to control velocity deviation to keep drop from becoming inconsistent.

    If you expect success, you really cannot "keep it simple".

    The F-class X-ring is 5" and is shot as far as 1,000 yards. Run the numbers on your ballistic program and see that a velocity change of only 12-14 fps takes you from the center of the X out to the 10 ring...

    This means that handloads should use the OCW method (similar to Creighton Audette's Ladder Method) of load development and care should be taken with any steps that affect velocity.

    Staying below maximum (for your individual rifle and components) is important from a safety aspect, but unless you test to the limit, you will probably not find a stable load, since most of the best OCW loads for any given cartridge will be close to maximum in your rifle. "Book Max" is not necessarily safe in your rifle, nor is it automatically unsafe. Only proper testing will determine maximum levels in your rifle with your particular components.

    Know that controlling powder charges to 1/100th or even to 1/10th is NOT the only answer and if you find yourself chasing crap like that, you're wasting your time and not getting the most from your gear. If your load is in the OCW zone, minor variations are absorbed and I have won plenty of long range matches with ammo that varied by as much as 3 tenths of a grain.

    http://www.shell-central.com/Powder1.html

    Ed knows more about long range shooting than I will EVER know. But I can tell you I load 1k fclass rounds on a RCBS 1500....fyi, it might be within a .1gr if I'm lucky. My shooting buddy typically shoots better than me (won national events, states, regionals etc). He also uses the 1500.

    I can tell you that my improvements on paper have come from the neck area. Finding a full length bushing die so you can change bushings for the .001 increments(especially if you're running a necked down wildcat cartridge). As the neck thins out (typically 3 firings) you'll need to change the bushing. The other thing that I've done that helps, lube bullet and inside of neck prior to seating the bullet. Helps the bullet release consistently.

    You can use an arbor press with a weighted guage that tells you how much pressure the seat the bullet, 25-30lbs seems to be the magic #. If it takes 50lbs when all the others take 25, you can bet that bullet wont release like the others. Paying attention to the neck and these details helps your vertical stringing.
     

    kooJoe

    Member
    Sep 23, 2013
    26
    near cambridge
    I repeat... Keep it simple. Attached is my .308’s grouping at 1000yds. Neck tension... not wasting my time. This rifle is for shooting deer. Thats why I always tell people to decide why you want to hand load. Define accurate. Do you want to compete, or do you want to shoot tighter groups than the factory ammo? Whatever floats your boat. Nothing mentioned in this thread is wrong or a waste to know about. Its just one can go absolutely insane chasing the ‘perfect group’.
     

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    bigcountry

    Active Member
    Jan 4, 2013
    105
    Carroll County
    So let me get this right. U think its good for someone just starting to load bottlenect cases to start annealing, and all that????

    ^^^ This. One of my students is former VA State F-Class champ and coaches the VA State team and he anneals EVERY time.

    Guys, long range precision handloading varies from standard mid/close range work in that velocity variations that are invisible at 100-200-500 yards are UGLY at 1k or more. One must really be careful to control velocity deviation to keep drop from becoming inconsistent.

    If you expect success, you really cannot "keep it simple".

    The F-class X-ring is 5" and is shot as far as 1,000 yards. Run the numbers on your ballistic program and see that a velocity change of only 12-14 fps takes you from the center of the X out to the 10 ring...

    This means that handloads should use the OCW method (similar to Creighton Audette's Ladder Method) of load development and care should be taken with any steps that affect velocity.

    Staying below maximum (for your individual rifle and components) is important from a safety aspect, but unless you test to the limit, you will probably not find a stable load, since most of the best OCW loads for any given cartridge will be close to maximum in your rifle. "Book Max" is not necessarily safe in your rifle, nor is it automatically unsafe. Only proper testing will determine maximum levels in your rifle with your particular components.

    Know that controlling powder charges to 1/100th or even to 1/10th is NOT the only answer and if you find yourself chasing crap like that, you're wasting your time and not getting the most from your gear. If your load is in the OCW zone, minor variations are absorbed and I have won plenty of long range matches with ammo that varied by as much as 3 tenths of a grain.

    http://www.shell-central.com/Powder1.html
     

    bigcountry

    Active Member
    Jan 4, 2013
    105
    Carroll County
    Exactly, I took long range and precision reloading so far about 20 years ago, that it was no fun at all. I ended up dreading loading for the weekend shoots. I went down the moly path, the neck reaming path, the neck tension path, ended up culling more brass than buying. It got out of control.

    I met quite a few snipers in my time. And they had a point. They shoot more than they ever tinker. Benchresters tinker more than they shoot.

    And actually shooting trumps all the tinkering in the world. Good fundamentally shooting is where its at. The rest will come.

    I repeat... Keep it simple. Attached is my .308’s grouping at 1000yds. Neck tension... not wasting my time. This rifle is for shooting deer. Thats why I always tell people to decide why you want to hand load. Define accurate. Do you want to compete, or do you want to shoot tighter groups than the factory ammo? Whatever floats your boat. Nothing mentioned in this thread is wrong or a waste to know about. Its just one can go absolutely insane chasing the ‘perfect group’.
     

    DanGuy48

    Ultimate Member
    One more thing, if you’re getting into long range, buy Brian Litz’s book and read it...a couple times. It’s close to being the Bible on that topic.

    https://www.amazon.com/Applied-Ballistics-Long-Range-Shooting/dp/0990920615

    Someone has already mentioned the accurate shooter forum but this one has some really good info as well.

    https://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/

    What rifle, caliber are you using and where are you shooting?

    ...Lest I flood the forum with newbie type questions, is there a standard reference/technical discussion on the science and art of developing a high precision load for long distance rifle shooting? I have the standard reloading data manuals ( Lee, Hornady, Lyman). I know Richard Lee talks a lot in the front of his manual about a lot of things, not sure that info is still up to date....
     

    KRC

    Active Member
    Sep 30, 2018
    615
    Cecil County MD
    Be Happy

    ‘I want to begin the process of reloading highly accurate ammo for MY rifle.’

    This is an interesting thread, with lots of different perspectives, and some great advice. This post is not meant to change anybody’s mind on anything, just some of my personal perspectives.

    1. I shoot and reload for enjoyment.

    The quest for precision, of which precision reloading is a major component, can be (is?) a deep dark rabbit hole. But it’s not for everybody. My thoughts are for new shooters to the quest to go down the rabbit hole only deep enough that you are enjoying yourself and are satisfied with your results. (Okay – probably self-evident.) But this level is different for everyone, so consider that there is no “right” level of OCD/rabbit hole depth, just what’s right for you. For example, kooJoe is not incorrect in his disdain for neck tension tuning (for him), but perhaps his view is not for the next shooter - in their quest.

    I personally enjoy letting my inner OCD run wild. My wife has learned that when I am down in my reloading “cave”, surrounded by scales and dispensers, presses and dies, shelves of loading trays filled with prepped cases, stacks of vials of powder and treated bullets, shelves of powder canisters, accompanied by the sound of devices beeping and presses clanking, and with the sharp tang of solvents in the air, I am a happy camper. :D

    2. As to the question of weighing out powder charges, I would add these perspectives:
    (I disagree with EdShell on this – HERESY!)
    (i) Different strokes for different folks.
    (ii) Powder is the PROPELLENT! It provides the energy to move the bullet. (Okay – self evident again.) The energy provided to a rifle shot is directly related to the mass (weight) of the propellant.
    (iii) A shot-to-shot difference of +/- 0.1 or 0.2 grains of powder my not be enough to take a load out of the tuning node for a given system. However, such a difference in the energy provided to the system will make an incremental difference in velocity - basic chemistry and physics - and as EdShell points out, small velocity differences make significant differences in vertical displacement at long distances, differences that are not always visible or significant at shorter ranges. Do you want to have a known variation in the “precision” handloads you make? See (i) above.

    The RCBS Chargemaster, even with the “MacDonald’s straw” mod, will throw differences of 12 or more granules(edit!) of Varget charge to charge. Do you want to have this known variation in the “precision” handloads you make? See (i) above.

    My Chargemaster is equipped with an orifice restriction in the hopper end of the dispensing tube, a reducing bushing in the discharge end, and the programming has been altered to SLOW it down, not speed it up. I read a book while dispensing charges, and empty the charges into vials for later loading. I am happy camper. (But see (i) above.)

    3. The psychological effect. I was once at a major benchrest competition where a gentleman had just handily won both the 100 and 200 yard matches. It all came down to the 300 yard match the next day. He was mentally contorted, clearly agitated, and approached me, talking about changing this and that loading parameter before the next days match. I told him to shut up, change nothing, get his head straight and shoot the load he had just demonstrated to be good enough to win two yardages in a national match. He did, and won. My point is that you personally have to have the confidence level in your ammo that gives you the “stillness” to concentrate on the shooting. When I am shooting, especially at longer distances, I like to know that I have not left potential precision “on the table”, and that when a shot goes high or low it is NOT due to incremental powder variation or some other variable I have not addressed to my satisfaction. The key here is not that the powder difference does or does not make the downrange difference, but that the uncertainty that this might be the cause is gone from my head. I can then concentrate on the wind/rifle/technique with a clear mind. Again, this is for me, not for everyone.

    4. Neck tension as a tuning parameter. Try it – you’ll like it. (Or not, see (i).)

    Be happy.

    PS – ras oscar – where are you located?
     

    ras_oscar

    Ultimate Member
    Apr 23, 2014
    1,666
    Thanks for the input. My priorities are:

    1. To have fun ( I enjoy shooting. I enjoy reloading. I believe I enjoy reloading more)
    2. To be at the point where I am no longer the weak link. That was made abundantly clear to me when I did a recent range day with another forum member. I loaded up with match ammo and shot an overlapping group of 5 rounds at 50 yards. first shots of the day. I have never done that before at ANY distance. The only difference was I was in a quiet space and able to remove tension from my shooting position. I also removed my reading glasses. No adjustments were made to ANY of the equipment, aside from using match ammo
    3. The longest range available to me at present is 200 yards at Hap Baker. I plan to work between 100 yards and 200 yards to close up my groups. Once I have "mastered" 200 yards, if I still have interest, I will research longer ranges.
    4. To be able to diagnose the *likely* cause of variances in groups and work to reducing them, where It is feasible for me to do so.

    Question: Has anyone ever disassembled a half dozen rounds of match ammo to measure the round-to-round variance in bullet and charge weights? If not, that might be an instructive use of my weekend, since I have some extra ammo lying around.
     

    Cuttyfunk

    Active Member
    Dec 17, 2015
    157
    The first step is setting reasonable goals. 200 yards is short. I load test at 200 yards so that can give you perspective. Balance reloading skills with shooting skills. No sense in reloading benchrest ammo if you are a 4 moa shooter or vise versa. Invest in quality equipment and know how to use it.
    Realize that everyone has an opinion and everyone's standards and expectations are different. This is where the first step comes into play. Set goals, meet them then set new goals.
     

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