What's the point of an SPR?

OLM-Medic · Mar 28, 2018

I have one already.

Lately I've been wondering why I even have it. It's done well for me at intermediate ranges, but it's too big and heavy to do any dual roles of close shooting. Yet I bet if I scoped my light 16" plain jane AR, I could get decent hits with a 1-4x scope even out to 600 yards and still be capable at close ranges on 1x.

Anyone else have this thought?

jimbobborg · Mar 28, 2018

Back about nine years ago, everyone in 3-gun used SPR style rifles. I still have mine from that era. 18" SPR profile barrel, rifle length gas system, long handguard, 1-4x scope. I used that rifle a couple of years ago in a local matches. It worked great close in and further out.

With that said, the current hotness in 3-gun is going lightweight. My original rifle weighs over ten pounds. The new one I just built, with scope, weighs under six pounds. It works great close in, but I haven't tried it out at range.

OLM-Medic · Mar 28, 2018

Yeah I'm leaning towards going lightweight so I can combine a CQB rifle and a intermediate range rifle in one. I trust a 4x scope, I'm not not sure how accurate by BCM barrel will be at range yet.

woodline · Mar 28, 2018

If you're talking about the point from a military perspective, it was to have something with more range (I think the req was effective terminal ballistics out to 700 yards) than a 10.5" or 14.5" SOPMOD upper would, but would still be shorter than an M16A4. In this case the rifle (mk12) and ammunition (mk262) were designed together-ish. It worked decently well for running around Afghanistan, and the ammo itself is fantastic. As far as I am aware, the Mk12s were scheduled to all be replaced by the FN SCAR-17 by 2017 but I honestly stopped paying attention after I left the military in 2016.

I have to admit that I am not sure what to do with my 2gun/3gun SPR-like build. I put it together 4 years ago, and then never had time to compete with it until last year. It is a sweet shooting rifle, but it is inherently heavy. At the very least I'm probably going to pull the Samson rail off this year and put on a lightweight rail. I need to figure out the weight for the Troy industries carbon fiber rails, because I'm hoping to chop at least half a pound off the front of the gun, and would prefer not to have to go to the hassle of removing the barrel nut. If I do that I may as well rebarrel to 6.5 Grendel or something.

RedTide · Mar 28, 2018

fbi_surveillance_van said:
If you're talking about the point from a military perspective, it was to have something with more range (I think the req was effective terminal ballistics out to 700 yards) than a 10.5" or 14.5" SOPMOD upper would, but would still be shorter than an M16A4.

This.

Not from a 3gun POV, but during my service time I loved running with the SPR when the situation called for it in the field. I could cover the 400-600 range much better than a red dot or EoTech, as I ran it with an ACOG or variable, something like 3.5-10x (can't remember model but it was likely a Leupold).

I wouldn't have liked it nearly as much without a few regular M4s at my side. Also worked well on a recce mission. We had so much other crap on the front of the weapon, the extra weight wasn't a big deal. But there was a reason for that, then...in 3gun I would think minimized weight and a 1-4x would make much more sense. .02 from an outside perspective.

OLM-Medic · Mar 28, 2018

I just think a normal carbine with a 1-4x scope and 77gr OTM will make hits at 600. Thoughts?

SCARCQB · Mar 28, 2018

Repurposed an older colt socom for something like a lightweight spr/ Recce carbine. I wanted a real spr upper. But sending kids to college ate into the gun fund. So.... work with what I already have.

600 yards is practical with heavier loads. The high magnification scope with bdc makes hitting mansized targets at 5-600 feasible. The 45 degree offset sights, is for cqb work.

The entire package weighs less than 9.5 lbs( no ammo).

woodline · Mar 28, 2018

OLM-Medic said:
I just think a normal carbine with a 1-4x scope and 77gr OTM will make hits at 600. Thoughts?

Another Navy program was the "Recce Rifle". It sounds like you're interested in building something along those lines. My eyes aren't great and I prefer a 1-6, but I think you'd be happy with what you're going for, particularly since I assume you are talking range use. Obviously you'd need to check velocity and do the ballistics calculations, but I expect you'd be happy with what you're thinking.

alucard0822 · Mar 28, 2018

I run an 18" AR in 3 gun, weighs in at 7.5# without optics, 9# with a 1-6x, but the rail and barrel are relatively light, most of the weight is in the stock and reciever, so the balance allows it to transition fast, doesn't feel much different than my 16" or 14.5" rifles, but the longer forend allows me to get my support hand way out front, and the rifle gas is very reliable and soft shooting. Sure there are tradeoffs, but the benefits outweigh a few ounces of weight savings, especiallly on long range and precision stages where it is more stable. I have run both a defensive 14.5" carbine, and 16" PCC, both topped with EoTechs weigh in about 7.5#, far lighter, and they move nice and fast close in, and while they can shoot well enough, it's harder to steady them, or swing from target to target as smoothly.

OLM-Medic · Mar 28, 2018

I know my SPR can hit at 600 reliably.

And I have no doubt that a 1-4x scope will do just fine too.

I'm not even worried about barrel length and velocity too much.

My only debate left is if my stock BCM LW 14.5" will be accurate enough to get similar results as the SPR. I guess I'll have to do a 100y test for MOA soon. Never really cared before since it was a CQB gun.

I just feel that I'm unlikely to use my SPR since it limits me at close distances, even with offset sights, yet with my CQB red dot setup, I elimate a portion of my long range skills entirely. I'm thinking the RECCE style would be the Jack of all trades.

FWIW, I never found the SPR in .223 that great at long range anyway. That's what my bolt is for. This is just to kind of have every ability in one rifle.

OLM-Medic · Mar 28, 2018

Does anyone have experience shooting both an accurized or "match" SPR rifle and a RECCE style 16" or less AR with a standard barrel at extended ranges?

I'm just wondering how much advantage all of that match stuff really gives and how they compare.

Biggfoot44 · Mar 28, 2018

Different Mil units had several different rifles of this basic type . Admittedly it serve( s/ed) a rather narrow niche , but multiple somebodies thought there was a niche in there .

As an individual civillian , it all comes down to the actual accuracy of the specific rifle. Really the specific bbl .

Preferences in weight and length are both personal, and cyclical fads .

lazarus · Mar 28, 2018

I’ve got zero match experience, but my 20” (yes, I know you said SPR) can manage sub MOA to at least 300 yards with the right ammo (PPU 75gr does the trick). I haven’t shot it much past that. You’d certainly get a fair amount of extra velocity with 20” of Barrel compared to 16 or 14.5”. I’ve got a 3-9x40 with MOA hashmarks on it. It weighs 9#1oz with scope. It certainly feels beastly compared to my 6#10oz 16” carbine with a red dot on it, but it is certainly a ton more accurate (certainly in large part due to the scope). The weight and rifle length gas system also help a lot with very fast follow up shots, especially at long range. If I was going to use it for something like a match, I’d probably look at a 2x7 or 1-6 or 1-8 scope instead.

Magnumite · Mar 29, 2018

Nice thread. The guys with practical application, insightful input. Thanks!

I have a pseudo-SPR type rifle, with a DPMS Mk 12 handguard. Colt 20” HBAR cut and threaded to 18” with a 3 x 9 bdc scope but considering a mildot. It is heavy and accurate. While I could use it in 3 gun it wouldn’t be my first choice in that role. I have carbines as capable enough at longer range and a practical advantage close in. I like the build for what it is, an intermediate range support or precision rifle.

lazarus · Mar 29, 2018

Oh and to add, at some point I may swap barrels on my 20”. I have a 20” HBAR flutter nitrided SS Classic Firearms Barrel sifting in my safe. Their stuff seems pretty accurate, if not one hole shooters. No idea just how much lighter it is, but at a guess 4-5oz lighter than the HBAR barrel on my 20” right now. That plus a Ti gas block and Ti flash suppressor and you’d be taking probably half a pound of weight slimmed off the rifle and mostly towards the end of it. It would probably feel pretty svelt at that point.

For extra weight savings could drop that upper on to a GWACS Cav-15 lower for another 4-5oz of weight savings. Get pretty close to an 8 pound scoped, heavy barreled 20” AR-15.

Park ranger · Mar 29, 2018

Haha, us service rifle shooters add weight. It's nothing to see a 16 pound AR on the line. But everyone's using a 20" barrel.

The match quality stuff is worth it if your trying to keep 20 shots in a 6 to 8" group at 600 yards. Since the rules have changed, about half of us use iron sights and half use up to the max 4.5 power scope.

I know, XTC is a complete different game than 3 gun.

woodline · Mar 29, 2018

In

OLM-Medic said:
Does anyone have experience shooting both an accurized or "match" SPR rifle and a RECCE style 16" or less AR with a standard barrel at extended ranges?

I'm just wondering how much advantage all of that match stuff really gives and how they compare.

I have a ton of experience shooting a 14.5" non-free floated M4 equipped with an Elcan SpectreDR out to 600 yards. Mostly at one of the Fort Benning known distance ranges. It worked fine for the most part.

Incidentally my big heavy 18" 2gun/3 gun rifle still has to weigh less than my first M4. It was a SOPMOD 2 with aforementioned Elcan, ATPIAL, white light with IR cover, and heavy quad rail. Eventually had a surefire suppressor on it too. Thing was ridiculous.

OLM-Medic · Mar 29, 2018

fbi_surveillance_van said:
InI have a ton of experience shooting a 14.5" non-free floated M4 equipped with an Elcan SpectreDR out to 600 yards. Mostly at one of the Fort Benning known distance ranges. It worked fine for the most part

Great. That's what my gut was telling me. I probably will free float though.

It's less about the weight, more about the length, and even more about being the Jack of all trades.

Pinecone · Mar 30, 2018

Barrel length does not affect inherent accuracy.

It does help when using iron sights by increasing the sight radius. But that is not a factor with optics.

Barrel length does affect muzzle velocity, which affects drop and wind drift at long ranges.

What's the point of an SPR?

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