Is round nose ok in level action rifles?

Feusombre · Mar 7, 2018

I was listening to some Youtube videos and saw there could be issues with non-flat nose bullets in lever action guys due to recoil setting off primers. Since im getting ready to get supplies to handload some 45 Long colts and I normally just shoot revolvers I wanted some feedback from other peoples experience with different bullet head types.

GuitarmanNick · Mar 7, 2018

I used round nosed, soft tipped bullets in my Model 94 as long as I owned it and never had a problem. It was chambered in .30-30 so it had some recoil. Do not use anything with a pointed tip! If you use a FMJBT you are inviting disaster!

At Hap Baker in Carroll County, they do not allow any Mosin to be loaded with more than one round at a time because of concerns about the tip of a round detonating the primer of a live round left chambered if the bolt has not been locked and is opened without extracting the round. Apparently it is pretty easy to cause a "kaboom" with pointed bullets hitting live primers in lots of weapons. Sometimes, it is just a matter of carelessness that causes an accident.

Always select the right components to insure safety! In tubular magazines for center-fire ammunition always use round nosed, soft tipped bullets and safety will not be an issue. Even though the tips of the rounds may get some small marks and dents on them, accuracy will not be noticeably affected in my experience.

Feusombre · Mar 7, 2018

So just stick with SWC lead instead of round nose sounds like the best way to go then?

Aventus · Mar 7, 2018

Feusombre said:
I was listening to some Youtube videos and saw there could be issues with non-flat nose bullets in lever action guys due to recoil setting off primers. Since im getting ready to get supplies to handload some 45 Long colts and I normally just shoot revolvers I wanted some feedback from other peoples experience with different bullet head types.

I use Hornady LEVERevolution 160 grain in my 30-30's.
Even though they say it's safe, I still only load one in the chamber and one in the magazine.

alucard0822 · Mar 7, 2018

Takes quite a bit of force in a small area to set off a primer, pointed FMJ could do it, but not much else. You can use most any bullet in a >30 cal big bore , RN, HP, FP, the restriction is generally for 22-30 cal FMJ, and potentially some soft point. For FMJ or pointed soft point, you just have to load no more than 1 in the tube, and 1 in the chamber.

GuitarmanNick said:
At Hap Baker in Carroll County, they do not allow any Mosin to be loaded with more than one round at a time because of concerns about the tip of a round detonating the primer of a live round left chambered if the bolt has not been locked and is opened without extracting the round. Apparently it is pretty easy to cause a "kaboom" with pointed bullets hitting live primers in lots of weapons.

Not the first stupid rule they have pushed based on nonsense. Break an extractor, and pretty much any rifle can doublefeed, Mosins have an interruptor, so outside of a broken extractor, it won't happen. Used to be a "thing" that push-feed was more dangerous due to double feeds than controlled aka "mauser" feeding, but has been pretty much debunked for decades.

smdub · Mar 7, 2018

The one levergun I own specifically warns about pointed bullets and primers not seated correctly (being left proud). If you are doing your own reloading, easy enough to pick flat point projectiles. I don't think there is any significant ballistic difference between RN & RN-FP either.

GuitarmanNick said:
At Hap Baker in Carroll County, they do not allow any Mosin to be loaded with more than one round at a time because of concerns about the tip of a round detonating the primer of a live round left chambered if the bolt has not been locked and is opened without extracting the round.

This due to trying to close the bolt again (which would feed a new round into the back of the one still in the bbl)? Aren't all bolt action rifles susceptible to this? Why single out mosins?

Doco Overboard · Mar 7, 2018

Dont forget about the tension of the magazine spring and broken extractor parts getting in the way of a rapidly closed bolt on anything. I never heard of any spitzer type bullet with the exception of the leverrevolution being recommended for use in a lever gun. Even if its a soft point spitzer. Round nose bullets have been used for years and some factory recommendations do not include flat point bullets for the possibility of feeding jamming problems due to the weight and design of the projie.
I just read a few months ago where a Mosin was susceptible to a primer strike that detonated or did detonate the round in front of it. Different primer designs may have something to do with that and the type of ammo that was in use.

alucard0822 · Mar 7, 2018

smdub said:
This due to trying to close the bolt again (which would feed a new round into the back of the one still in the bbl)? Aren't all bolt action rifles susceptible to this? Why single out mosins?

The Mosin's interruptor won't allow the next round up from the magazine until the bolt is fully closed, at which point a good extractor will lock onto the rim of the chambered round, so it's actually LESS succeptible than other rifles. You can slide the bolt forward and back, the next round won't pop past the interuptor, but the round is loose after coming out of the feed lips when pushed by the bolt, aka "push feed". A double feed, where a chambered round is fired from the next round being pushed forward by the bolt won't normally happen, definitely nowhere near as likely as it is in semi-autos. There can be issues with pin protrusion, cosmo'ed or bad trigger parts that can cause a slam fire, but doesn't matter how many rounds are loaded in the mag in that case.

GuitarmanNick · Mar 7, 2018

In the Mosin's the problem happens when you chamber a round and do not lock the bolt down. It is possible to pull the bolt back without the extractor removing the chambered round. If one has gotten distracted and forgets there is a round in the chamber and goes to load the next round the bolt will pick up the round and push it's tip into the primer of the chambered round resulting in the kaboom from a double feed.

Doco Overboard · Mar 7, 2018

GuitarmanNick said:
In the Mosin's the problem happens when you chamber a round and do not lock the bolt down. It is possible to pull the bolt back without the extractor removing the chambered round. If one has gotten distracted and forgets there is a round in the chamber and goes to load the next round the bolt will pick up the round and push it's tip into the primer of the chambered round resulting in the kaboom from a double feed.

https://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=58545
Found what I was reading and it was more than a few months ago. I know the OP somewhat but do not know his son in law or his friends wife.

Biggfoot44 · Mar 7, 2018

With leverguns, it partly depends upon if it is straight walled (typically "pistol" ctg) or bottle necked.

Straight walled will be basically level attitude within the tube magazine. Botrle necked with significantly larger base, will be more nose down attitude.

Since the OP mentioned .45 Colt , that ctg typically doesn't use true roundnose bullets , rather RNFP ( Round Nose/ Flat Point ) those bullets generally have a flat enough tip to be safe in tube magazines .

John from MD · Mar 7, 2018

30-30 standard 150gn Remington was a round nose bullet for years as was the Winchester 170gn HP. Never had any go off as the ogive is too big. As Alucard stated earlier, when hunting longer ranges, I would load 150gn Spitzer bullets, one in the chamber and one in the magazine. They had to be handloaded as, before the LeverRevolution, there were no pointed bullets factory loaded for the 30-30.

jimbobborg · Mar 7, 2018

Just use bullets for Cowboy loads. SWCs don't always feed correctly with lever guns.

Doco Overboard · Mar 7, 2018

John from MD said:
30-30 standard 150gn Remington was a round nose bullet for years as was the Winchester 170gn HP. Never had any go off as the ogive is too big. As Alucard stated earlier, when hunting longer ranges, I would load 150gn Spitzer bullets, one in the chamber and one in the magazine. They had to be handloaded as, before the LeverRevolution, there were no pointed bullets factory loaded for the 30-30.

Remington made an accelerator 125 grain sabot load 30/30 and I have purchased spitzer bullets factory loaded in .35 Remington (200 gr) both of course intended for bolt action rifles.
I have also seen Winchester silver box 30/30 150 gr. accompany a savage bolt action rifle but that was many moons ago and my memory could be hazy but do remember a discussion about the types of bullets and the same discussion between the use of the same ammo in two different action types with the owner parent of a young man who was passed down the bolt gun.
I purchased both the spitzer .35 Remington and 30/30 accelerators from Colonial Arms before I started loading for the .35
I think the 35 spitzers were offered for bolt action pistols and single shot T/C's but were really just Whelen bullets meant for dispersal during the contender days.
They were out there I'm sure of it maybe just not in droves. This was in the 80's and I know your experience predates mine I'm sure,

Naptown34 · Mar 7, 2018

Sounds like a mythbuster episode is needed.

Art3 · Mar 7, 2018

Biggfoot44 said:
With leverguns, it partly depends upon if it is straight walled (typically "pistol" ctg) or bottle necked.

Straight walled will be basically level attitude within the tube magazine. Botrle necked with significantly larger base, will be more nose down attitude.

Since the OP mentioned .45 Colt , that ctg typically doesn't use true roundnose bullets , rather RNFP ( Round Nose/ Flat Point ) those bullets generally have a flat enough tip to be safe in tube magazines .

That's what I was thinking. All the cowboy loads I've seen are flat point. I just checked the Remmington Target "Round Nose" ammo I have, and they are, in fact RNFP. The flat is small, but it was explained to me that it is big enough due to the primer construction:

To get detonation, you have to have adequate pressure applied to the anvil in the center of the primer (which a true round nose could do). Even if the flat point is smaller than the primer itself, if it is big enough to push against the sides of the cup, and not the anvil, it should be safe.

That's what I was told, and it sounds reasonable to me :shrug:

Art3 · Mar 7, 2018

Naptown34 said:
Sounds like a mythbuster episode is needed.

I'd watch it!

Doco Overboard · Mar 7, 2018

Naptown34 said:
Sounds like a mythbuster episode is needed.

Yeah and then the merits of hard vs soft primers can be included in the episode.

alucard0822 · Mar 7, 2018

GuitarmanNick said:
In the Mosin's the problem happens when you chamber a round and do not lock the bolt down. It is possible to pull the bolt back without the extractor removing the chambered round. If one has gotten distracted and forgets there is a round in the chamber and goes to load the next round the bolt will pick up the round and push it's tip into the primer of the chambered round resulting in the kaboom from a double feed.

not on a properly functioning Mosin, the interuptor prevents it.

there is a possibility of a broken or out-of-spec part, especially firing pin issues, but as designed, it shouldn't happen as described. Of course dropping a round in while single loading doesn't push the round into the magazine past the interuptor, so it can CAUSE a kaboom if you were to push a round into the chamber, but not far enough for the extractor to grab it, then open the bolt, drop another round in, and try to chamber the 2nd round. Most other push feed rifles don't have an interuptor, so while unlikely, it could happen with Rem 700s, Savage 10s, and most semi-autos.

John from MD · Mar 7, 2018

I have seen a magazine go off. The guy shooting it mixed up a 300 Savage when loading his 30-30. Don't ask me how since one is rimmed and one isn't. He only had three rounds in the magazine when it detonated. His left arm was pretty bloody as the magazine opened up at that point. It also blew out the front mag plug and made the forend into toothpics.

I suspect that if you try this with Federal primers you will probably be successful.

"I purchased both the spitzer .35 Remington and 30/30 accelerators from Colonial Arms before I started loading for the .35
I think the 35 spitzers were offered for bolt action pistols and single shot T/C's but were really just Whelen bullets meant for dispersal during the contender days."

Doc, I never saw the sabots except for 30-06 but I'll take your word for it. I remember them being the rage for a while.

Is round nose ok in level action rifles?

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