Hogan Vetoed HB 1343 / SB 1000!

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  • Occam

    Not Even ONE Indictment
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 24, 2018
    20,410
    Montgomery County
    I have to question the "huge majority" of any group in this state.

    OK, I'll clarify. They're the huge majority of the people who hold and use power. The power of the vote, and the power of elected office. But even leaving aside voter turnout numbers, I don't think one can appreciate the broad cultural (and, however incoherently, philosophical) disposition of the population in the power counties. It's overwhelmingly lib/dem/progressive-minded. I have the misfortune of living and working hip-deep in it, and I can tell you that the SJW-style, TDS-minded, "redneck"-hate runs deep and wide. They aren't just anti-gun in the normal sense. They think we're dangerous, mentally ill children. That's not hyperbole. They are so profoundly signed on to the Nanny State mentality that it is, I think, beyond any hope of repair at the voter level in those areas.

    Their hatred for you is palpable, and they consider your instinct to rally the troops and get the corruption out of Annapolis to be - as we saw them saying just this past legislative season - the personification of terrorism. They actually mean stuff like that when they say it, and the local (and national) media repeats and reinforces it. Combine that with it being pounded in from day one in the public schools, and you have a baked-in, dyed-in-the-wool, irreversible world view that can only be checked (by the courts), but never actually fixed. People raised to think that hating you and everything you stand for is virtuous aren't going to change their minds and suddenly start embracing constitutionalism generally, let alone the 2A specifically. Like NY and CA, MD is too far gone. You might talk them into fixing outright corruption (say, Pugh), but you aren't going to change their moral compass.

    Relief through the courts resulting in a more rational no-(or less)-infringement set of policies is possible. And if such a judicially-enforced posture can then be sustained for the better part of a generation in Maryland, the fact that it won't be the wild west with blood running in the streets will eventually normalize things a bit.

    But the problem is that it's not about guns in the first place. This is about individualism vs. collectivism. And because the collectivists truly, deeply hate your individualist instincts on all subjects, they most vocally hate any particularly visible manifestations of it. Your desire to be able to defend yourself is the classic one. But the root cause of their hatred for you is your generally non-compliant attitude towards leftist culture in the first place. The gun-grabbing is a side show for that larger cancer, but they fight on that topic because it's easy to exploit, emotionally, with low-information, non-critical-thinking, emotionally enslaved voters (which brings us back to what happens in school). In the meantime, my resources go primarily to those who are fighting in court.
     

    Allen65

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Jun 29, 2013
    7,167
    Anne Arundel County
    But the problem is that it's not about guns in the first place. This is about individualism vs. collectivism. And because the collectivists truly, deeply hate your individualist instincts on all subjects, they most vocally hate any particularly visible manifestations of it. Your desire to be able to defend yourself is the classic one. But the root cause of their hatred for you is your generally non-compliant attitude towards leftist culture in the first place. The gun-grabbing is a side show for that larger cancer, but they fight on that topic because it's easy to exploit, emotionally, with low-information, non-critical-thinking, emotionally enslaved voters (which brings us back to what happens in school). In the meantime, my resources go primarily to those who are fighting in court.

    Good summation of the problem, except I'd replace "leftist" with "statist". I can tolerate others' differing political points of view. I can't tolerate their trying to use the power of the state and its concomitant threat of prosecution against me to force me to comply with their beliefs. And that applies to the extreme Right as well as the Left. Authoritarianism is authoritarianism, no matter the flavor.
     

    Occam

    Not Even ONE Indictment
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 24, 2018
    20,410
    Montgomery County
    Good summation of the problem, except I'd replace "leftist" with "statist". I can tolerate others' differing political points of view. I can't tolerate their trying to use the power of the state and its concomitant threat of prosecution against me to force me to comply with their beliefs. And that applies to the extreme Right as well as the Left. Authoritarianism is authoritarianism, no matter the flavor.

    I understand your point, but in general terms: the more hardcore right side of the spectrum is going to want to use their government power to... have less government for you to have to deal with in the first place. The far left (and even the squishy middle left) positively requires never ending expansion of government power and intrusion. The political right and statism really don't coexist in anything like the same way the left needs it like oxygen.
     

    wjackcooper

    Active Member
    Feb 9, 2011
    689
    Occam,

    Thanks for posting, sums up the picture of political power in this state (and country) or so it seems to me.

    Regards
    Jack
     
    Last edited:

    danb

    dont be a dumbass
    Feb 24, 2013
    22,704
    google is your friend, I am not.
    I understand your point, but in general terms: the more hardcore right side of the spectrum is going to want to use their government power to... have less government for you to have to deal with in the first place. The far left (and even the squishy middle left) positively requires never ending expansion of government power and intrusion. The political right and statism really don't coexist in anything like the same way the left needs it like oxygen.

    I disagree. The "hardcore right side of the spectrum" wants to control your uterus, bloodstream, come into your cell phone on a pretext, and all in the name of public safety. They do not have a problem confiscating the cash in your vehicle and making you pay massive fees to get it back. Nor do they have a problem assessing massive fines for silly crimes and throwing people in jail for $600. The biggest impediment to constitutional carry in states like South Carolina is those hard core right republicans who demand a permit.

    So, if you think that "hardcore right side of the spectrum is going to want to use their government power to have less government" you have been asleep for decades. The hardcore right side of the spectrum wants to expand government power for their objectives. Maybe you have not noticed, but government spending has increased faster than GDP under Trump, and he's giving away more corporate welfare (aka Ethanol, allowing 15% in your gas tank this summer, because farmers are hurting due to the trade war).
     

    PowPow

    Where's the beef?
    Nov 22, 2012
    4,713
    Howard County
    The way the "ring-wing Nazi" stuff started: the Nazis were considered to be to "the right" of the Marxist/Communists. Still both leftist (statist) political philosophies, like kissing cousins. Then somehow magically the "right" stuck, but the context was dropped and became a smear tactic that lives on to this day.

    It's now used in this country to smear the conservatives in the Republican party and now it is parroted in text books. Nazism is not, never was, and never will be right-wing. Nazism is statist and leftist. Nazi = National Socialist German Workers' Party.

    While there are many ways to describe left and right, I like to think of them in this way: Extreme left desires strong government that provides for its citizenry in the hopes for fairness and equality; Extreme right desires as little government (aka anarchy) as possible as it feels it can self-regulate in hopes for maximum personal choice and liberty.

    Here's an interesting treatment of the various ways left vs. right have been defined:

    https://zahnzee.wordpress.com/2017/04/27/left-vs-right-what-does-it-mean-anymore/
     
    Last edited:

    rbird7282

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 6, 2012
    18,716
    Columbia
    OK, I'll clarify. They're the huge majority of the people who hold and use power. The power of the vote, and the power of elected office. But even leaving aside voter turnout numbers, I don't think one can appreciate the broad cultural (and, however incoherently, philosophical) disposition of the population in the power counties. It's overwhelmingly lib/dem/progressive-minded. I have the misfortune of living and working hip-deep in it, and I can tell you that the SJW-style, TDS-minded, "redneck"-hate runs deep and wide. They aren't just anti-gun in the normal sense. They think we're dangerous, mentally ill children. That's not hyperbole. They are so profoundly signed on to the Nanny State mentality that it is, I think, beyond any hope of repair at the voter level in those areas.



    Their hatred for you is palpable, and they consider your instinct to rally the troops and get the corruption out of Annapolis to be - as we saw them saying just this past legislative season - the personification of terrorism. They actually mean stuff like that when they say it, and the local (and national) media repeats and reinforces it. Combine that with it being pounded in from day one in the public schools, and you have a baked-in, dyed-in-the-wool, irreversible world view that can only be checked (by the courts), but never actually fixed. People raised to think that hating you and everything you stand for is virtuous aren't going to change their minds and suddenly start embracing constitutionalism generally, let alone the 2A specifically. Like NY and CA, MD is too far gone. You might talk them into fixing outright corruption (say, Pugh), but you aren't going to change their moral compass.



    Relief through the courts resulting in a more rational no-(or less)-infringement set of policies is possible. And if such a judicially-enforced posture can then be sustained for the better part of a generation in Maryland, the fact that it won't be the wild west with blood running in the streets will eventually normalize things a bit.



    But the problem is that it's not about guns in the first place. This is about individualism vs. collectivism. And because the collectivists truly, deeply hate your individualist instincts on all subjects, they most vocally hate any particularly visible manifestations of it. Your desire to be able to defend yourself is the classic one. But the root cause of their hatred for you is your generally non-compliant attitude towards leftist culture in the first place. The gun-grabbing is a side show for that larger cancer, but they fight on that topic because it's easy to exploit, emotionally, with low-information, non-critical-thinking, emotionally enslaved voters (which brings us back to what happens in school). In the meantime, my resources go primarily to those who are fighting in court.



    This is absolutely 100% spot on. I’ve lived in Howard County for 20 years and the above mentioned attitudes are pervasive. These people want a government program/control for virtually EVERYTHING. It’s really quite astonishing to me but I’ve realized you won’t change their minds. They are so far gone that there is no return to reality. The biggest problem is the schools indoctrinating our kids with this shit.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     

    FMD

    Active Member
    OK, I'll clarify. They're the huge majority of the people who hold and use power. The power of the vote, and the power of elected office. But even leaving aside voter turnout numbers, I don't think one can appreciate the broad cultural (and, however incoherently, philosophical) disposition of the population in the power counties. It's overwhelmingly lib/dem/progressive-minded. I have the misfortune of living and working hip-deep in it, and I can tell you that the SJW-style, TDS-minded, "redneck"-hate runs deep and wide. They aren't just anti-gun in the normal sense. They think we're dangerous, mentally ill children. That's not hyperbole. They are so profoundly signed on to the Nanny State mentality that it is, I think, beyond any hope of repair at the voter level in those areas.

    Their hatred for you is palpable, and they consider your instinct to rally the troops and get the corruption out of Annapolis to be - as we saw them saying just this past legislative season - the personification of terrorism. They actually mean stuff like that when they say it, and the local (and national) media repeats and reinforces it. Combine that with it being pounded in from day one in the public schools, and you have a baked-in, dyed-in-the-wool, irreversible world view that can only be checked (by the courts), but never actually fixed. People raised to think that hating you and everything you stand for is virtuous aren't going to change their minds and suddenly start embracing constitutionalism generally, let alone the 2A specifically. Like NY and CA, MD is too far gone. You might talk them into fixing outright corruption (say, Pugh), but you aren't going to change their moral compass.

    Relief through the courts resulting in a more rational no-(or less)-infringement set of policies is possible. And if such a judicially-enforced posture can then be sustained for the better part of a generation in Maryland, the fact that it won't be the wild west with blood running in the streets will eventually normalize things a bit.

    But the problem is that it's not about guns in the first place. This is about individualism vs. collectivism. And because the collectivists truly, deeply hate your individualist instincts on all subjects, they most vocally hate any particularly visible manifestations of it. Your desire to be able to defend yourself is the classic one. But the root cause of their hatred for you is your generally non-compliant attitude towards leftist culture in the first place. The gun-grabbing is a side show for that larger cancer, but they fight on that topic because it's easy to exploit, emotionally, with low-information, non-critical-thinking, emotionally enslaved voters (which brings us back to what happens in school). In the meantime, my resources go primarily to those who are fighting in court.


    This is EXACTLY the problem with Maryland. And it's purely mathematical at this point. This is why we left. I'm not getting any younger and I wanted to spend time in Free America while I'm still young enough to enjoy it. Luckily, my wife was onboard and our circumstances allowed us to leave.

    And, yes, I know "Free America" isn't what it used to be as far as freedom goes, but it's damn sure better than Maryland and at least where we are now, we can make a difference.
     

    PowPow

    Where's the beef?
    Nov 22, 2012
    4,713
    Howard County
    I disagree. The "hardcore right side of the spectrum" wants to control your uterus, bloodstream, come into your cell phone on a pretext, and all in the name of public safety. They do not have a problem confiscating the cash in your vehicle and making you pay massive fees to get it back. Nor do they have a problem assessing massive fines for silly crimes and throwing people in jail for $600. The biggest impediment to constitutional carry in states like South Carolina is those hard core right republicans who demand a permit.

    So, if you think that "hardcore right side of the spectrum is going to want to use their government power to have less government" you have been asleep for decades. The hardcore right side of the spectrum wants to expand government power for their objectives. Maybe you have not noticed, but government spending has increased faster than GDP under Trump, and he's giving away more corporate welfare (aka Ethanol, allowing 15% in your gas tank this summer, because farmers are hurting due to the trade war).

    Nah. What you describe is the hardcore right side of the republican party. The republican party in this country these days is well to the left of center in the context of the full political spectrum. The last real republican (to the right of center) was probably Barry Goldwater.

    The founders of this country I'd say were about 10-20% to the right of center. They did not believe in democracy nor anarchy which were to their right. That's why we got a republic with representative democracy.

    Most of the leaders we have today in both parties (including Trump) would have been all considered to be way left of center back in Goldwater's day.
     

    Mark75H

    MD Wear&Carry Instructor
    Industry Partner
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 25, 2011
    17,254
    Outside the Gates
    Nazi's were orginally an amalgam of left and right, but clearly, if you read history, they KICKED the left OUT. The name stayed, but the socialists left - or rather, went to concentration camps. You can stop harping on Nazi's being leftists. By the time they came to real power, they were pure right side spectrum
     

    PowPow

    Where's the beef?
    Nov 22, 2012
    4,713
    Howard County
    Probably... but I'll bet the head of appointments is well aware of their ideology...

    Larry appointed them, so there is a chance that any one of them may be a leftist, a leftist Nazi, or Nazi leftist. And that's okay - politics is not a qualification for the board. I hope they all take their appointments seriously, serve Maryland, and protect our citizens' rights from tyranny.
     

    Applehd

    Throbbing Member
    MDS Supporter
    Apr 26, 2012
    5,290
    Larry appointed them, so there is a chance that any one of them may be a leftist, a leftist Nazi, or Nazi leftist. And that's okay - politics is not a qualification for the board. I hope they all take their appointments seriously, serve Maryland, and protect our citizens' rights from tyranny.

    Not to be argumentative... but... I'll bet Larry didn't. I might know just a lil'
    'bout how this works...:innocent0
     

    CrueChief

    Cocker Dad/RIP Bella
    Apr 3, 2009
    3,044
    Napolis-ish
    What are you calling for, specifically? Violence? Voting for Frosh for governor to teach all those Hogan voters a lesson? What - in specific, non-hand-wavy, simple language - are you really suggesting when you use platitudes like that?

    Hogan isn’t the active enemy. He’s just a symptom of what the enemy (just barely, and for the last time in this state) allowed to happen. The people you need to “stand up against” are the huge majority of people in the state who actively, passionately, and with their wallets and votes, hate everything you stand for. How will you stand up against them, in a way that actually will result in the core populations of places like Montgomery and Howard counties utterly upending their world views and everything they say they believe in? Please be specific, since I have yet to hear even one sincere, plausible answer to that question.

    What I am calling for is having the mdgop give the citizens an actual principled conservative as a choice.

    Nothing more and absolutely nothing less.

    The lesser of two evils is a ridiculous proposition. And still leads one down the road to all out evil.
     

    danb

    dont be a dumbass
    Feb 24, 2013
    22,704
    google is your friend, I am not.
    What I am calling for is having the mdgop give the citizens an actual principled conservative as a choice.

    Nothing more and absolutely nothing less.

    The lesser of two evils is a ridiculous proposition. And still leads one down the road to all out evil.

    So register Republican and vote in the primary. Problem solved.

    Better yet, anyone who thinks that they can do better can run.
     

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