ATF Weighs in on Firearm Braces Once Again

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  • platoonDaddy

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 30, 2011
    4,125
    SouthOfBalto
    There they go again, now owners of the Springfield Saint Edge Pistol are in harms way. Yep, the overall length of the Edge is 24.5"

    What does this mean for gun owners? Measure your AR pistol without the brace installed. If its total length 26 inches long or longer, enjoy a forward pistol grip if you like. (For the sake of measuring firearms, buffer tubes count as integral gun parts.) If it’s under 26 inches long, that means you’re stuck using angled grips, or bipods, or lanyards…just not vertical foregrips.

    https://www.gunsamerica.com/digest/atf-firearm-braces/
     

    danb

    dont be a dumbass
    Feb 24, 2013
    22,704
    google is your friend, I am not.
    I don't think that this is new. I have read some opinion letters going back quite a ways on this. I think as far back as 2011.

    People cannot have it both ways: Part of the reason braces get special treatment is that they are short and not considered permanent. If they were permanent we could be in "Stock" aka SBR territory.

    Not permanent, and under 10", Houston we have a pistol. But yeah, pistol means no vertical fore grips. And also, we measure OAL without the brace (but with the buffer).

    I always wonder who really gets their panties in a bunch about this. AR pistols are short... if you need to get a grip, just use the magazine well to hold it like everyone else.
     

    Combloc

    Stop Negassing me!!!!!
    Nov 10, 2010
    7,216
    In a House
    Hey, I wonder what'll happen if I poke this bear?...………….

    The moron quotient of the average human being never ceases to amaze me.
     

    platoonDaddy

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 30, 2011
    4,125
    SouthOfBalto
    I don't think that this is new. I have read some opinion letters going back quite a ways on this. I think as far back as 2011.

    People cannot have it both ways: Part of the reason braces get special treatment is that they are short and not considered permanent. If they were permanent we could be in "Stock" aka SBR territory.

    Not permanent, and under 10", Houston we have a pistol. But yeah, pistol means no vertical fore grips. And also, we measure OAL without the brace (but with the buffer).

    I always wonder who really gets their panties in a bunch about this. AR pistols are short... if you need to get a grip, just use the magazine well to hold it like everyone else.

    The point is following ATF's 21 March 2017 letter, manufactures of Pistols with a total length of 24.5", added a multi-position brace that is comfortably fired from the shoulder. So many shooters purchased Pistols from manufactures that are now illegal with the brace.



    In a letter dated March 21, 2017, ATF reexamines its earlier position, which stated that shouldering a PSB-equipped firearm could constitute the making of an unregistered short-barreled rifle under the National Firearms Act (NFA). ATF now states:

    “With respect to stabilizing braces, ATF has concluded that attaching the brace to a handgun as a forearm brace does not ‘make’ a short-barreled firearm because … it is not intended to be and cannot comfortably be fired from the shoulder.” The letter continues: “Therefore, an NFA firearm has not necessarily been made when the device is not re-configured for use as a shoulder stock — even if the attached firearm happens to be fired from the shoulder.”

    The following passage from the letter acknowledges the confusion surrounding the January 2015 “Open Letter on the Redesign of ‘Stabilizing Braces’”, and clarifies that ATF does not consider shouldering a PSB-equipped firearm, in and of itself, to render it an SBR.

    “To the extent the January 2015 Open Letter implied or has been construed to hold that incidental, sporadic, or situational ‘use’ of an arm-brace (in its original approved configuration) equipped firearm from a firing position at or near the shoulder was sufficient to constitute a ‘redesign,’ such interpretations are incorrect and not consistent with ATF’s interpretation of the statute or the manner in which it has historically been enforced.”



    https://www.sigsauer.com/press-releases/atf-clarifies-ruling-pistol-stabilizing-braces/
     

    danb

    dont be a dumbass
    Feb 24, 2013
    22,704
    google is your friend, I am not.
    The point is following ATF's 21 March 2017 letter, manufactures of Pistols with a total length of 24.5", added a multi-position brace that is comfortably fired from the shoulder. So many shooters purchased Pistols from manufactures that are now illegal with the brace.
    1- "comfortably fired from the shoulder" sounds like a stock, not a brace to me. An accessory that appears to remake a pistol to be fired from the shoulder is probably a stock, not a brace. So you have an SBR, not a pistol. I have a brace or three, but some manufacturers are going right up to the line then going over it. Manufacturers are making these faster than the ATF can review them, so buyer beware.

    2- the article you link to does not mention any braces that are now illegal. Nor does it mention the Springfield Saint. It talks about the overall length with and without the brace, and vertical fore grips and when you have an AOW. As far as I can tell, the Springfield Saint is still for sale. And there is really nothing new in the article you link to. Its a restatement of previous ATF positions.
     

    platoonDaddy

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 30, 2011
    4,125
    SouthOfBalto
    1- "comfortably fired from the shoulder" sounds like a stock, not a brace to me. An accessory that appears to remake a pistol to be fired from the shoulder is probably a stock, not a brace. So you have an SBR, not a pistol. I have a brace or three, but some manufacturers are going right up to the line then going over it. Manufacturers are making these faster than the ATF can review them, so buyer beware.

    2- the article you link to does not mention any braces that are now illegal. Nor does it mention the Springfield Saint. It talks about the overall length with and without the brace, and vertical fore grips and when you have an AOW. As far as I can tell, the Springfield Saint is still for sale. And there is really nothing new in the article you link to. Its a restatement of previous ATF positions.

    Dang what can I say

    1. "comfortably fired from the shoulder" sounds like a stock, not a brace to me. please scroll to .10 of the video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4_2RIhOIDE

    Okay what does that look like? !

    2. the article you link to does not mention any braces that are now illegal From the following quote: if total length isn't 26" or longer, any brace is illegal (my words)!

    What does this mean for gun owners? Measure your AR pistol without the brace installed. If its total length 26 inches long or longer, enjoy a forward pistol grip if you like. (For the sake of measuring firearms, buffer tubes count as integral gun parts.) If it’s under 26 inches long, that means you’re stuck using angled grips, or bipods, or lanyards…just not vertical foregrips.

    Nor does it mention the Springfield Saint As previously stated, the Springfield Saint Edge is only 24.5 inches. Therefore the Maxim Defense CQB, Adjustable 4-Positions "forearm brace" is illegal.
     

    smokey

    2A TEACHER
    Jan 31, 2008
    31,412
    Dang what can I say

    1. "comfortably fired from the shoulder" sounds like a stock, not a brace to me. please scroll to .10 of the video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4_2RIhOIDE

    Okay what does that look like? !

    2. the article you link to does not mention any braces that are now illegal From the following quote: if total length isn't 26" or longer, any brace is illegal (my words)!

    What does this mean for gun owners? Measure your AR pistol without the brace installed. If its total length 26 inches long or longer, enjoy a forward pistol grip if you like. (For the sake of measuring firearms, buffer tubes count as integral gun parts.) If it’s under 26 inches long, that means you’re stuck using angled grips, or bipods, or lanyards…just not vertical foregrips.

    Nor does it mention the Springfield Saint As previously stated, the Springfield Saint Edge is only 24.5 inches. Therefore the Maxim Defense CQB, Adjustable 4-Positions "forearm brace" is illegal.

    It just means don't put a vertical grip on it. You're completely fine otherwise with your handgun.
     

    platoonDaddy

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 30, 2011
    4,125
    SouthOfBalto
    It just means don't put a vertical grip on it. You're completely fine otherwise with your handgun.

    It was purchased last week from Springfield with the vertical grip! I never added or removed the stock vertical grip.

    Did you watch the 1st 10-20 seconds of the video, that is how the Pistol is shipped.
     

    Combloc

    Stop Negassing me!!!!!
    Nov 10, 2010
    7,216
    In a House
    It just means don't put a vertical grip on it. You're completely fine otherwise with your handgun.

    Exactly correct but would-be-lawyers won't leave it at that. They'll continue to dissect it and read all kinds of things into it. Such silliness never ceases to amaze me. :sad20:
     

    danb

    dont be a dumbass
    Feb 24, 2013
    22,704
    google is your friend, I am not.
    It just means don't put a vertical grip on it. You're completely fine otherwise with your handgun.

    This

    It was purchased last week from Springfield with the vertical grip! I never added or removed the stock vertical grip.

    Did you watch the 1st 10-20 seconds of the video, that is how the Pistol is shipped.

    I watched the video... where is the vertical grip?? I dont see anyone using a vertical grip in that video, at least not the first minute. I see people using the magazine well, as god Eugene Stoner intended.

    If you mean that little thing at the front of the handguard, its a handstop, not a grip. I mean, you can try using it as a grip, if you have the smallest hands in the world. :lol2:
     

    platoonDaddy

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 30, 2011
    4,125
    SouthOfBalto

    platoonDaddy

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 30, 2011
    4,125
    SouthOfBalto
    This



    I watched the video... where is the vertical grip?? I dont see anyone using a vertical grip in that video, at least not the first minute. I see people using the magazine well, as god Eugene Stoner intended.

    If you mean that little thing at the front of the handguard, its a handstop, not a grip. I mean, you can try using it as a grip, if you have the smallest hands in the world. :lol2:


    Excellent point, I got caught up in the moment. Should have read "FOREARM BRACE
    Maxim Defense CQB, Adjustable 4-Positions"
     

    smokey

    2A TEACHER
    Jan 31, 2008
    31,412
    It was purchased last week from Springfield with the vertical grip! I never added or removed the stock vertical grip.

    Did you watch the 1st 10-20 seconds of the video, that is how the Pistol is shipped.

    It's a "hand stop", not a vertical foregrip.
     

    smokey

    2A TEACHER
    Jan 31, 2008
    31,412
    If I might piggyback with a question here, have they specifically weighed in on the Magpul AFG? https://www.magpul.com/products/m-lok-afg?ProductColor=VO343

    Sometimes people need to stop asking them questions.

    I know it has been illegal, but who knows with ATF, the following is from 2014

    https://johnpierceesq.com/can-you-add-a-vertical-fore-grip-to-an-ar-pistol/

    FYI: I never asked questions, just read Guns America
    The AFG and angled rail attachments similar to it have been completely fine to stick on a pistol for a while now.
    https://johnpierceesq.com/does-the-atf-treat-angled-fore-grips-the-same-as-vertical-fore-grips/
     

    1841DNG

    Ultimate Member
    Apr 17, 2016
    1,143
    Eventually I worry that they will re ban shouldering a brace as well as start calling these “pistols” sbr’s. That’s why I haven’t invested in them.

    I imagine that people who do dumb stuff like brag about circumventing the law on facebook or youtube will get popped. But otherwise, no one will know what percentage of the time you shoulder vs using as designed. At the end of the day though, while SBR restrictions are idiotic, I am glad that at least there are functional devices to help those with physical injuries that would otherwise prevent them from enjoying their pistols. Just remember folks, if you see a leftist campaigning about braces, remember to ask them why they hate the disabled.
     

    daNattyFatty

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 27, 2009
    3,908
    Bel Air, MD
    I imagine that people who do dumb stuff like brag about circumventing the law on facebook or youtube will get popped. But otherwise, no one will know what percentage of the time you shoulder vs using as designed.


    Not unlike all the consternation over 922r compliance.



    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
     

    smokey

    2A TEACHER
    Jan 31, 2008
    31,412
    Eventually I worry that they will re ban shouldering a brace as well as start calling these “pistols” sbr’s. That’s why I haven’t invested in them.

    One thing that's cool is heller's "common use" language. It'd be hard to argue that AR braced pistols are NOT in common use right now. I want as many people to buy ar pistols as possible while it's greenlighted so that it makes a future legal challenge that much easier. That's one thing I like about places like PSA churning out cheap guns. Sure, their quality control may not be up to BCM, but just getting ARs out there is a pretty good thing for us in a lot of ways.
     

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