Correct me if I'm wrong...

Understood, I was just pointing out that being in a restaurant that serves alcohol while CCW is not illegal in DC

DC does prohibit consumption of any kind while CCW.

If it is not worth it to you then don't get it. Simple.

Lots of good info. A couple of points:
1) as mentioned, right now it is any one of the three lists. Do keep in mind though that it must be a ten round or less mag, and no threaded barrel (on a handgun). so some gun configurations legal in maryland are not legal in DC. Also keep in mind some regulations on gun sales that might make a gun effectively prohibited in Cali or Mass, eg on their roster but not sold in stores due to other non roster rules, are sometimes legal in DC.

2) John Lott does some great work, but his map is 100% BS and a scare tactic. similar to NRA saying DC was the worst the past 10 years whereas anyone who went thought the hoops to get a handgun to keep for home defense in NJ knew that DC has been easier for five years or so.

3)

swinokur said:

There is no gray area about carry in restaurants and hotels that serve alcohol. Specifically allowed in the statute.
C/R and D/R and C/H and D/H are DC licenses to serve beer, wine or spirits in a restaurant or hotel. Notice the comma in the statute including these license types.
Not a gray area at all.

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That is the way I read it initially too. But looking at all the rules over (and over) again, on businesses that regularly sells wine, beer or liquor for on premises consumption, I would just avoid them. The problem is that even though MPD may say it is meant to exempt restaurants that sell wine , the statue says "temporary licences" which is a separate class from full-time licences even within the letter designations. Temporary licences are for example licences for a specific set of four days at a venue.

Your caterer needs to get one say at a venue that is not normally a restaurant and it can be argued that is the purpose of the statue. Ie you are invited to a wedding reception at one of the old guy clubs, or a hotel that does not have a restaurant, or some association building, the caterer secures a temporary liquor license for that day. if you work in that building or are invited to that wedding or party, because the licence is temporary, carry is ok (as long as you yourself don't drink.)
https://beta.code.dccouncil.us/dc/council/code/sections/25-115.html
I am worried that this code can be said to mean that for example if you get invited to a rooftop Fourth of July party at the "American Association of whatever" or a wedding at some mansion that does events, or the catered opening with wine of an exhibit at some gallery, you are ok; but you are not ok at any place that serves beer, even incidental to main business of being a restaurant, with a yearly licence.

I am just worried that since it specifies 25-115,113 and 118, that it can be argued to exclude full year C/R, D/R. I am wondering if the regs for off duty cops are full time C/R,D/R, C/H,D/H are ok and that is why they are saying it is ok for CCL, when the code does have that "temporary" in it, making it different for CCL than off duty cops.

Does the use of the comma separator and the word OR change the meaning of the statute in our favor?

And if you avoid carry in a a venue where a temporary license has been issued, are you then OK?

Why would a restaurant that has a yearly license need a temporary one in addition to it's regular license?

I'm confused.

A funny thing is that DC prohibits threaded barrels, but the HK45CT is on the MD roster. It comes with a threaded barrel.

Which applies?

Does it help that only permanent license types are mentioned? Class F & G temp licenses are not mentioned, but the other classes are and separated by a comma, being additive, but separate. Or does that not make a difference?
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swinokur said:

A funny thing is that DC prohibits threaded barrels, but the HK45CT is on the MD roster. It comes with a threaded barrel.
Which applies?

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I'd be pretty sure the prohibition on specific attributes overrides. No threaded barrels even if the gun is on a roster. Same as with mags. Lots of guns come only with over 12 rounders as a package from maker, it is up to you to insure seller does not send those to sykes.

In the case of a CT(readed) version it would be up to you to insure seller swap barrels to "c" version, or if you live outside of DC and have it registered in Md or Va, that you change barrel when in DC

interestingly, unlike most states, DC code does not force you to obliterate/permanently weld and pin a threads on a rifle barrel as long as it is over 16"

Yep. I have both barrels I'll put the C version in if I go into town.

swinokur said:

Does it help that only permanent license types are mentioned? Class F & G temp licenses are not mentioned, but the other classes are and separated by a comma, being additive, but separate. Or does that not make a difference?
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On careful reading of that over and over, I don't think so. The starting point is the blanket prohibition, then the exemptions. To argue the exempted class does not exist in the specific letter designation, is technically true -- but this would not invalidate the prohibition -- it just kicks you back to the starting point of being prohibited and it would invalidate the exemption.

so the problem is: are the exemptions an affirmative defense?. ie one where you prove you are exempt.if the exemption does not exist because it is written wrong, then maybe a cop, prosecutor or jury or judge is going to see that as you not being exempt.


It seems an issue of starting point. if the starting point was "it's ok except prohibited in the following" then the fact that one of the "following" was written badly would be ok. In this case it is "not ok" except for following, meaning "following" written badly means the CCL maybe committing a crime.

DC could argue that the spirit of the law (only exempts temporary) as well as the letter of the law (conveys no exemption to non temporary C/R, C/H etc) means in either interpretation you can't have a CCL in any C/R except temporary, and the fact that no temporary C/R exist, because a temporary C/R uses a different letter designation, is meaningless to the prohibition

I really don't like this as a situation in which I really would like to carry is a a eight block walk back late at night from to a restaurant in the evening where my wife might have a glass of wine (I don't drink). In my class I was instructed this was OK, I have had cops say it is OK. It is one of the most sensible carry situations there is . Yet that code's starting point is that if alcohol is served there one is prohibited. Unless it was an ISIs cell or some kind of serial killer one brandished on or shot at, DC is possibly going to vigorously prosecute the CCL holder to make an example.

I am not an attorney. But I am concerned about how this is written.

I guess legislative intent might play into a defense strategy.

Not a good situation for a defendant in any event.

Maybe you could ask George Lyon for his opinion.

Look at this mess in Montana law. Illegal to body concealed carry in a restaurant that serves wine, but apparently not illegal to put the loaded gun in your purse or backpack while there!
http://www.defensivecarry.com/forum...cussions/124542-montana-restaurant-carry.html

in DC while there are prohibited places where you can unload and "possess" in a backpack (public transport) -- probably increasing the chance of NDs as people load and unload handguns every day (!) to conform to the law, in some cases unloading is not enough because that may kick you back to DC:

permitted to transport a firearm for any lawful purpose from any place where he may lawfully possess and carry the firearm to any other place where he may lawfully possess and carry the firearm if the firearm is transported in accordance with this section.

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So 22-4504.02 unloaded is apparently ok on the bus or metro as you are going from one place to another, but not ok to put it in backpack in restaurant that serves wine, something that is ok in other jurisdictions that prohibit "carry" in place that serves alcohol (or other people's homes, etc).

But even the public transportation law is messed up, because in one place in the code it says you have to secure it in a container unloaded, and in another place in the code it says if your vehicle is not available you must leave the prohibited location, and public transport is listed as a "location."

it seems to me DC tool its internal regulations for cops off duty and then grafted on a kitchen sink of a bunch of other stuff, leading to a half dozen or so inconsistencies.

Yep, in DC transport is legal on public transportation. Carry is not.The portion you quote is taken directly from Title 18 SS926A AKA FOPA, but I guess it could also apply if you don't leave DC.

Look at VA, OC is ok and you can consume in a restaurant that serve alcohol if OC. CCW you may not consume.

Hence the VA tuck where your short is pulled behind your firearm to make it observable from common observation.

What a mess.

Va changed that a cpl yr ago . You may now conceal in alcohol serving establishment , if you do not consume.

But you may still consume , if OC .

My point was it's legal to consume while OC, but not CCW.

swinokur said:

I guess legislative intent might play into a defense strategy.

Not a good situation for a defendant in any event.

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Agreed. I will specifically ask George Lyon here on pm

I don’t think George is a member of the forum

Biggfoot44 said:

Va changed that a cpl yr ago . You may now conceal in alcohol serving establishment , if you do not consume.

But you may still consume , if OC .

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Yeah, each state has different laws. Like I noted Montana allows you to be in restaurant that serves wine it if you OC, or, according to the actual statue sets,
concealed off body, but not concealed on body.

I sent an email to George asking his opinion. I'll report back when I hear from him

Heard back from George

He said :

They are separate exceptions.

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And more specifically I asked:

Thank you for the quick response. So carry but not consumption in a licensed restaurant or hotel is legal?

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George answered

Yes

Sent from my Iphone

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ETA-George is a practicing attorney and a DC certified handgun instructor.