Unserialized Production Handgun ??

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  • GuitarmanNick

    Ultimate Member
    Jan 9, 2017
    2,221
    Laurel
    Any handgun that has had the serial number removed and is in the possession of a LEO makes me suspicious of the LEO! Some have been known to carry such handguns to use as a drop piece if they are involved in a bad shooting! Even traffic cops know this gun is illegal which makes me even more suspicious.
     

    welder516

    Deplorable Welder
    MDS Supporter
    Jun 8, 2013
    27,301
    Underground Bunker
    I am a law abiding citizen , and this thread makes me very un-comfortable kinda like sitting next to Liberace naked while playing the piano or flute .
     

    Inigoes

    Head'n for the hills
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 21, 2008
    49,358
    SoMD / West PA
    Many handguns, and even more shotguns manufactured before 1968 have no serial numbers. They are PERFECTLY LEGAL to own. In a free State.

    Its not illegal to own a firearm without a serial number. It could have been made before 1968 or made without the INTENT to sell.

    Both are correct.

    However, the OP stated the serial numbers were filed off. Which is highly illegal.
     

    Doco Overboard

    Ultimate Member
    I know of one instance where a Leo was gifted a gun in an area where gifting firearms to peace officers is specifically prohibited. He accepted believing it was a good faith measure and then later got it shoved up his backside.
    Karma sometimes is a bitch.

    Not saying that is the case here because of the words retired and “Dixie” but I would be prudent while selecting the next steps or course of action I would take.
     

    DutchV

    Ultimate Member
    Jul 8, 2012
    4,702
    I know of some older handguns that were made without serial numbers. Revolvers in .32 S&W, for instance, were pretty cheap (and cheaply made). Not the same as defacing the serial on a modern handgun, though.
     

    Flametamer

    Active Member
    MDS Supporter
    Mar 6, 2014
    796
    Frederick County
    So the handgun has been turned in to the appropriate LE agency. In response to the several speculations above, the individual in question spent more than 22 years under cover; he never wrote a traffic ticket or cuffed a perp; never learned anything about gun law after the academy. He asked me the question when the gun came into his possession because he knows that I have access to a great body of knowledge. To those who helpfully shared their knowledge, thank you.
     

    Pinecone

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 4, 2013
    28,175
    VI. KNOWINGLY POSSESS OR MANUFACTURE:
    18 USC § 922(k), (o) & (v); 26 USC § 5861. Punishable by up to 5 or 10 years
    imprisonment, depending upon specific violation.
    A. Any machine gun, fully automatic firearm or any part designed or intended exclusively for
    use in such weapon;
    B. Any firearm silencer, including any device, or part thereof, designed to silence, muffle or
    diminish the report of a firearm;
    C. Sawed-off shotgun with a barrel length of less than 18" or overall length less than 26";
    D. Sawed-off rifle with a barrel length of less than 16" or overall length less than 26";
    E. Destructive device;
    F. Semi-automatic assault weapon manufactured after October 1, 1993; OR
    G. Any firearm which lacks a serial number or contains an altered or obliterated serial
    number.

    Just possessing it is a Federal felony, with penalties of up to 5 or 10 years in prison.
     

    KevinK

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 24, 2008
    4,973
    Carroll County, Md
    So the handgun has been turned in to the appropriate LE agency. In response to the several speculations above, the individual in question spent more than 22 years under cover; he never wrote a traffic ticket or cuffed a perp; never learned anything about gun law after the academy. He asked me the question when the gun came into his possession because he knows that I have access to a great body of knowledge. To those who helpfully shared their knowledge, thank you.

    William Costigan approves of this post.

    :D
     

    ras_oscar

    Ultimate Member
    Apr 23, 2014
    1,666
    Glad your friend did the right thing and disposed of the firearm in an approved manner.

    Now a point of curiosity;

    There are techniques used by criminalist to restore legibility to serial numbers that have been filed. Say the person in question used one of those techniques to recover the proper serial number of the firearm, and determines through research it is neither stolen nor wanted for evidence in a criminal case. Are there approved methods of reapplying the proper serial number to said firearm and return it to legal service? I'm assuming for purposes of discussion the firearm is no longer in production and a frame swap at the factory is not available. ( I believe on warranty repairs at the factory that is done from time to time)
     

    Bullfrog

    Ultimate Member
    Oct 8, 2009
    15,152
    Carroll County
    Just possessing it is a Federal felony, with penalties of up to 5 or 10 years in prison.

    Curious where you copied that from... is that an old source? Because this:

    F. Semi-automatic assault weapon manufactured after October 1, 1993;

    seems it must predate the end of the AWB.


    Also this:
    G. Any firearm which lacks a serial number or contains an altered or obliterated serial number.
    seems to contradict what has been said about completed 80% receivers. I thought they were required to have a serial number if you wished to sell or transfer one, but pinecone's quote appears to ban possession unless it has a serial #.
     

    Inigoes

    Head'n for the hills
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 21, 2008
    49,358
    SoMD / West PA
    Curious where you copied that from... is that an old source? Because this:



    seems it must predate the end of the AWB.


    Also this:

    seems to contradict what has been said about completed 80% receivers. I thought they were required to have a serial number if you wished to sell or transfer one, but pinecone's quote appears to ban possession unless it has a serial #.

    It is legal to possess a handgun that never had a serial number. It is also legal to possess a handgun that one has made for their personal use.

    If the handgun had a serial number assigned and said serial number has been removed/obfuscated; this is the no-go zone, where bad things happen to people.
     

    Pinecone

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 4, 2013
    28,175
    The law requiring serial numbers is GCA 68, so dates from 1968.

    That came from the ATF page.
     

    Boats

    Beer, Bikes n Boomsticks
    Mar 13, 2012
    4,073
    Howeird County
    Thanks for the mostly helpful and informative responses. The individual involved is not a MD resident; lives somewhere in Dixieland... I will pass the collective wisdom along. He is a retired LEO, and still part time LEO, and asked because he likes this particular gun and he wants to do the right thing. He is a straight up honest individual, no hint of dishonest intention in his or any other interaction I have ever had with him. I would not be surprised if, after hearing these responses, he simply turns it in through his part time LE agency.

    Um. He is a retired and part time LEO and still has to ask a friend to ask an out of state firearms owners forum for legal advice that is fairly common knowledge?

    Seems legit
     

    Mark75H

    MD Wear&Carry Instructor
    Industry Partner
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 25, 2011
    17,172
    Outside the Gates
    Um. He is a retired and part time LEO and still has to ask a friend to ask an out of state firearms owners forum for legal advice that is fairly common knowledge?

    Seems legit

    Common knowledge to us, but not the general public. My nephew is one of the "gun law go to guys" in the unit where he works and he still calls me for stuff he is not clear on.
     

    Pinecone

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 4, 2013
    28,175
    Sorry, everyone knows a missing serial number is a No-No. Or they have never watched TV or a movie. :D
     

    lazarus

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 23, 2015
    13,678
    This. Something is fishy here. I would not touch that firearm with a 10 pole.

    This. But if he didn’t realize it was illegal for some stupid reason or only realized later they were filed off (I will admit I’ve bought a gun or two and only looked at the serial number later. They all have them (that are supposed to, I’ve got a pre GCA gun or two that aren’t military).

    Anyway, I’d contact the ATF. They likely will seize it. However, if he is looking for the right thing to do, that is likely it. You could probably strip it first. Only the part that should have a serial number is conserved a firearm. That said, this is pretty far down illegal road, I wouldn’t monkey around. I’d contact them and just fess up. They want illegal guns gone or the right guns in the right people’s hands.

    That said, a call to an attorney familiar with his state and federal firearm laws and actual cases is a good bet.
     

    Mark75H

    MD Wear&Carry Instructor
    Industry Partner
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 25, 2011
    17,172
    Outside the Gates
    This. But if he didn’t realize it was illegal for some stupid reason or only realized later they were filed off (I will admit I’ve bought a gun or two and only looked at the serial number later. They all have them (that are supposed to, I’ve got a pre GCA gun or two that aren’t military).

    Anyway, I’d contact the ATF. They likely will seize it. However, if he is looking for the right thing to do, that is likely it. You could probably strip it first. Only the part that should have a serial number is conserved a firearm. That said, this is pretty far down illegal road, I wouldn’t monkey around. I’d contact them and just fess up. They want illegal guns gone or the right guns in the right people’s hands.

    That said, a call to an attorney familiar with his state and federal firearm laws and actual cases is a good bet.

    Note post #27:

    So the handgun has been turned in to the appropriate LE agency. In response to the several speculations above, the individual in question spent more than 22 years under cover; he never wrote a traffic ticket or cuffed a perp; never learned anything about gun law after the academy. He asked me the question when the gun came into his possession because he knows that I have access to a great body of knowledge. To those who helpfully shared their knowledge, thank you.


    Its done and gone.
     

    Bob A

    όυ φροντισ
    MDS Supporter
    Patriot Picket
    Nov 11, 2009
    30,687
    So I bought an old Remington single-shot 22 rifle from an IP here. It had no serial number. When ATF went through the IP's books, they questioned this sale, and I had to bring the gun back to the dealer so ATF could see that it never had a SN. You'd think that they would know about this sort of thing, but you'd be wrong.

    Of course it all turned out to be a nothingburger, and I got the gun back a few days later.

    Despite this:
    VI. KNOWINGLY POSSESS OR MANUFACTURE:
    18 USC § 922(k), (o) & (v); 26 USC § 5861. Punishable by up to 5 or 10 years
    imprisonment, depending upon specific violation.
    A. Any machine gun, fully automatic firearm or any part designed or intended exclusively for
    use in such weapon;
    B. Any firearm silencer, including any device, or part thereof, designed to silence, muffle or
    diminish the report of a firearm;
    C. Sawed-off shotgun with a barrel length of less than 18" or overall length less than 26";
    D. Sawed-off rifle with a barrel length of less than 16" or overall length less than 26";
    E. Destructive device;
    F. Semi-automatic assault weapon manufactured after October 1, 1993; OR
    G. Any firearm which lacks a serial number or contains an altered or obliterated serial
    number.
    neither I nor the FFL are felons.

    . . . At least not until October 1, depending on the actions of the current GA.
     

    Tungsten

    Ultimate Member
    Jan 1, 2012
    7,230
    Elkridge, Leftistan
    What do all of you think would happen if someone waited until a gun buyback to drop the gun off? Do they walk out of there with $100 or do they walk out of there in handcuffs?
     

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