Rock Island Auction: Group Buy?

JamesH · Jan 20, 2015

This doesn't seem at all simple. It could be very complicated and illegal, or it could be just fine. If at the end of the transaction, everyone filled out their own, separate 4473s and 77Rs, and all the FFLs Bound Books listed the correct buyers, it could be fine. You would probably have to coordinate in advance with the FFL01 and the auction house to ensure bookkeeping is done legally, but if they won't break up the lot, well-intending, law-abiding citizens should be able to make this work.

I would bet on the auction house resisting doing that much work, though.

Stevie Boy · Jan 21, 2015

Gee, it would seem to me that it wouldn't matter how many people pay for the auction. As long as each individual files his own paperwork at the FFL, that should be legal.

Any FFLs care to weigh in? Otherwise, I'm just speculating. (And, yes, I realize we are in Maryland).

sxs · Jan 21, 2015

Call the auction company and see if they can process multiple 4473's for more than 1 firearm in a lot. If they can't / won't, the issue is moot. You CANNOT buy multiple firearms with provable intent to sell some of them. To do so, you have to lie on a Federal form. In the case that was posted, it was PROVABLE that there was intent to buy the gun to get his uncle a discount since the uncle wrote the check in advance. One more caveat, just because 'proof' is needed to convict you, would you really, REALLY want to stretch things so that you would have to defend yourself in court? Even if you win the case, after all the expense and time involved, you lose. Now, what if the auction company will do transfers to multiple individuals for one lot? If they will, it still seems complicated. What are the odds that all the firearms are of exactly equal equal value?

Read the link to the article about the ex-cop that was posted. He did NOTHING to get around having the Glock properly registered to his uncle. However, he did lie on the form 4473 and the justices had no choice, even in appeal and regardless of lack of criminal intent, but to convict him of a straw purchase despite doing an otherwise proper transfer via an FFL to his uncle in another state

lee2 · Jan 21, 2015

22Shooter said:
A lottery can be won with separate multiple party's l, why can't an auction?

The ATF doesn't run the lottery. Please do your homework.

22Shooter · Jan 21, 2015

lee2 said:
The ATF doesn't run the lottery. Please do your homework.

I'm well aware of that. I was comparing the way it would work. RIA just informed me, you could make the purchase as a group. Once the items are shipped to an FFL, each person would fill out the appropriate paperwork for their firearm.

w2kbr · Jan 21, 2015

I'm not sure how this worked....but there was a "Group Buy" of the MDS 1911s......

And I think they were engraved with MDS "logos"........

I think.

Just wondering
R

R

sxs · Jan 22, 2015

w2kbr said:
I'm not sure how this worked....but there was a "Group Buy" of the MDS 1911s......

And I think they were engraved with MDS "logos"........

I think.

Just wondering
R

R

This is not a problem. The FFL handling the sale knows there are multiple buyers to begin with. Each buyer will pay individually and receive an individual transfer.

22Shooter has his answer: have an FFL receive the shipment and handle the transfer and let the FFL process paper work for multiple individuals. Might want to check on transfer fees, however. If there are 5 firearms in a lot and the transfer fees are $30 each (a VERY low fee - lot'sa guys are $50 - $75 or even higher these days) that's $150 for the transfer.

coopermania · Jan 22, 2015

plinkerton said:
They go after ex-cops, they'll come after you. Queue Starwars Imperial March

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/supreme-court-sides-gun-control-groups-straw-purchase-law/

Not the same as buying from a auction.. The ex policeman lied on a 4473 in Virginia that he was the purchaser..And the pistol went to his Uncle in Pennsylvania. You do not fill out a 4473 with rock island... All buyers fill out 4473 forms from the ffl that firearms were shipped too.

coopermania · Jan 22, 2015

22Shooter said:
I'm well aware of that. I was comparing the way it would work. RIA just informed me, you could make the purchase as a group. Once the items are shipped to an FFL, each person would fill out the appropriate paperwork for their firearm.

Like you said in post #5,,,,,,,,,,,,,It is as simple as that.....

good guy 176 · Jan 22, 2015

lee2 said:
what he is suggesting is a straw purchase.

Not a straw purchase. Straw purchase involves intent to defraud.

Lew--Ranger63

lee2 · Jan 22, 2015

good guy 176 said:
Not a straw purchase. Straw purchase involves intent to defraud.

Lew--Ranger63

fraud isnt the issue, Intent is. if you are purchasing with the intent to supply someone with that firearm, that Is a straw purchase.

Alphabrew · Jan 22, 2015

I wish there was a collector's license but for non-C&R guns. Kind of like a C&R but for modern firearms. In other words, I don't want to be in the business of selling firearms to the public but I want to buy directly from wholesalers, etc. There should be an FFL for that.

BUFF7MM · Jan 22, 2015

lee2 said:
fraud isnt the issue, Intent is. if you are purchasing with the intent to supply someone with that firearm, that Is a straw purchase.

I know what your saying if the Op was to go handing them out once he does paperwork on the guns but if the lot has 20 guns in it, the OP has 10 other people in the mix for part of the 20 lot, OP wins auction, OP pays, guns are sent to an 01FFL, 11 people fill out 4473's for their part of the auction. I see nothing even close to a straw purchase since all parties involved filled out 4473's for what was in the auction. All involved with the OP went thru the proper channels for the guns.

22Shooter · Jan 22, 2015

Well, I believe today is the last day of the auction, but at least we have the details sorted out. I suggest signing up on the RI mailing list and getting the catalog. Next auction maybe we can work something out. They do have alot of cool stuff.

jlowe23 · Jan 22, 2015

Alphabrew said:
I wish there was a collector's license but for non-C&R guns. Kind of like a C&R but for modern firearms. In other words, I don't want to be in the business of selling firearms to the public but I want to buy directly from wholesalers, etc. There should be an FFL for that.

And then we would need gun stores why????

zeebill · Feb 24, 2015

22Shooter said:
A lottery can be won with separate multiple party's l, why can't an auction?

Buying a gun is not a lottery. An auction of a group of rifles is purchased by one person legally and the legal paperwork reflects that. One person makes out a 4473 showing he is the purchaser and he goes through the NICS check accordingly. After he does that he can legally sell a rifle to another person though you can get yourself into trouble real easy from there especially if you are going to put that on an open forum.

I have bought well over $10.000 of Milsurp rifles over the years from RIA and I will tell you this right out if you are buying especially from them without being there and looking at things first hand you are going to be disappointed in their Identification and appraisals big-time. I am not saying they do anything illegal I am just finding fault with their knowledge and identifying of what they are selling and its condition. Those shiny first class catalogs are very impressive as are the beautiful looking women they have working there but it Is all there as window dressing to take your mind off all the fee's and taxes you are spending while getting not always what you want and being pleasantly distracted. The groupings also make you take things you have no interest in at all and leave you looking for a way to dispose of it at a later date.

I won't say you can't find bargains there but you for sure have to be there and see things first hand to get them unless you are counting on being awfully lucky. OH By the way Good Luck! Bill

camobob · Mar 11, 2015

lee2 said:
fraud isnt the issue, Intent is. if you are purchasing with the intent to supply someone with that firearm, that Is a straw purchase.

Legal or not, you're playing with fire.

fabsroman · Mar 11, 2015

lee2 said:
ding ding we have a winner!

What if the winning bidder becomes the owner of all of the guns and transfers them to the other participants via a FFL. The straw purchase issue comes in when the winner takes possession of the firearms and then just hands over some firearms to the other participants without a NICS.

Of course, this does get a little complicated in answering question 1 on the NICS. Are you purchasing the firearm for yourself?

Can't see why somebody couldn't buy a group of firearms with the intent to resell them at a later date. What if I won an auction for 10 firearms and then proceeded to list all of them on Gunbroker?

End of the day, it sounds like way too much headache just for one or two items out of a group I might be interested in, unless we are talking some high dollar/very rare items.

hi3cho · Mar 19, 2015

It seems like the legality comes down to the paper work not really the auction. If the paper work for each firearm is completed by the person taking possession of the gun then it shouldn't be a straw purchase. Now the auction may not let you split up the paperwork and thats where you might run into issues.

Fabsroman mentioned one person doing all the paper with intent of legally transferring them to another buyer. This may be considered a straw purchase but what if you found a good deal and bought a firearm with an intent to sell for a profit? It is a similar situation as far as intent but I would say that would not be considered a straw purchase. Ultimately I think if the paperwork is done for the person who takes possession of the weapon then it shouldnt be a straw purchase at all because that is the purpose of the law.

JamesH · Mar 19, 2015

hi3cho said:
It seems like the legality comes down to the paper work not really the auction. If the paper work for each firearm is completed by the person taking possession of the gun then it shouldn't be a straw purchase. Now the auction may not let you split up the paperwork and thats where you might run into issues.

Fabsroman mentioned one person doing all the paper with intent of legally transferring them to another buyer. This may be considered a straw purchase but what if you found a good deal and bought a firearm with an intent to sell for a profit? It is a similar situation as far as intent but I would say that would not be considered a straw purchase. Ultimately I think if the paperwork is done for the person who takes possession of the weapon then it shouldnt be a straw purchase at all because that is the purpose of the law.

This exactly, yes. Also, the OP contacted the auction house, which confirmed the legality of the plan to have separate individuals take possession after filling out separate 4473s at their chosen FFL.

The auction house gets their money. The 4473s are done accurately by the recipients. No problems.

I don't know why this is still being discussed.

Rock Island Auction: Group Buy?

The #1 community for Gun Owners of the Northeast

Member Benefits:

That Guy

Ultimate Member

Senior Member

Banned

Active Member

MSI EM, NRA LM, SAF, AAFG

Senior Member

Banned

Banned

R.I.P.

Banned

Binary male Lesbian

☠Buff➐㎣☠

Active Member

,

Member

Active Member

Ultimate Member

Ultimate Member

That Guy

Users who are viewing this thread

Log in

Forum statistics