PERMIT APPLICATION RETURNED

Patrick · Apr 13, 2012

Dead Eye said:
...

Can we talk about Treyvon now?

Who dat?

swinokur · Apr 13, 2012

JohnPierce said:
I wrote about this briefly in my blog today. I think there is some potential up-side to what they are doing.

I linked my readers back to this thread.

http://monachuslex.com/?p=453

John, welcome to MDS. Have you joined MSI?

mvee · Apr 13, 2012

So is there any way a person could make the MDSP follow the COMAR and process the application?

petergriffin · Apr 13, 2012

Dead Eye said:
This is the exact kind of misguided information I'm speaking of. The state didn't say any of those things. The MDSP said "Here's your money back, because unless you have a 'good and substantial' reason, we're just going to keep your money and tell you, no,"

Now, as ESQ said, if you want to keep your app alive, contact the MDSP and request that they continue processing your app.

As for those who got in under the "stay", wait until the 24th of May.

As for the State causing you harm... good luck with that. Let me know how you make out.

Misguided information? The letter said that if you chose to apply without having G&S you will be denied as nothing has changed since the Woolard decision. I highlighted the exact things you say the letter didn't say in bold. Please understand that I am not part of a clique and I am new here, but why would you say the letter didn't say those things when simply reading the letter would reveal it says clearly you will be denied.

Dear Applicant:

As you may know on March 2, 2012, Judge Benson Everett Legg of the United States District Court for the District of Maryland ruled that Maryland's requirement of a 'good and substantial reason' in Md. Public Safety Code Ann §5-306 for issuance of a handgun permit is "insufficiently tailored to the State's interest in public safety and crime prevention." [Well. That’s one take on, “A citizen may not be required to offer a good and substantial reason why he should be permitted to exercise his rights. The right‘s existence is all the reason he needs.]

However, on March 30, 2012, Judge Legg issued two further orders: first, he made it clear that the effect of his March 2 Memorandum and Order is intended to enjoin the State Police from enforcing the "good and substantial reason" provision in §5-306. Second, he stayed the effect of his injunction. The judge's decision to issue a stay means that the State Police are obligated to continue to apply the law to all permit applications as enacted by the Maryland General Assembly including the "good and substantial reason" requirement. [The MSP is actually required to uphold the law and the constitution. The MSP can and should immediately reinterpret G&S] As of this date, we do not know how long the stay will be in effect. The Attorney General's Office has appealed the judge's decision and the Fourth Circuit will hear the case. We do not have any information on when the case will be heard or when a
decision will be made by the appellate court. [Incredibly, it seems like MSP intends to ignore Legg’s decision any way possible until the Appeals Court acts]

You have recently submitted a permit application in which you have not provided any representation or evidence that you have a good and substantial reason to wear, carry or transport a handgun.[That’s just false in my case] Therefore, rather than processing your application and denying it on that basis, we are retuning your application and fee to you. You have two options: you can resubmit your application and provide a good and substantial reason for your permit request and the State Police will process it as we have always done. Or you can decide that you will not apply for a pemit at this time, but instead will wait for a ruling from the appellate court.

Should you have questions that have not been addressed above or need additional infom1ation, please contact the Maryland State Police Handgun Permit Unit at licensing@mdsp.org. The commander of the Handgun Pem1it Unit may also be reached by mail at 1111 Reisterstown Road, Pikesville, Maryland 21208, or by telephone at 410-653-4500. [The endless options phone tree designed to prevent you from reaching a live person].

Sincerely,

Lieutenant Jack McCauley, Commander
Licensing Division
Maryland State Police

Dead Eye · Apr 13, 2012

gmhowell said:
I'm missing how what you say MDSP said and what petergriffin says they said are different.

I'll grant you there's cliquishness, but that happens on any internet message board (and if we count Usenet and BBS's, I bet I've been on more than most around here), but if you are just going to rant for the sake of ranting, no wonder people are going to ignore you.

Again, no one is ranting, and yes some gets lost in translation, but it's all been said. Over and over, it's kind of like talking to one of your teenage kids, you say, "hey, this what will happen..." they go ahead and do it anyway. OK, I tried, so go ahead and do it anyway.

Dead Eye · Apr 13, 2012

Patrick said:
Who dat?

Sent from my DROID Pro using Tapatalk 2

Patrick · Apr 13, 2012

JohnPierce said:
I wrote about this briefly in my blog today. I think there is some potential up-side to what they are doing.

I linked my readers back to this thread.

http://monachuslex.com/?p=453

Thanks for the link-back.

I will note that the idea of being denied a permit by NJ/MD/CA as being detrimental for getting a permit in a shall-issue state is a bit of fudd. I have never heard of a shall-issue permit being denied because a discretionary issue state doesn't think the right exists. I am aware of the opposite (people getting permits after those states say go away).

The question on those shall-issue permits is simply a way of asking if there is/was derogatory information that another state found that caused a denial. Sometimes people get things expunged; it is fair to ask the reasons you were denied. Florida even asks if you are a fugitive from the law. I love that one.

Maryland people have been denied permits here and then gotten them in Florida, et al. Shall-Issue states follow their laws, and I would much like to see any state that has law allowing a denial based on what Maryland thinks of the 2A right. They ask the question to get better information on the applicant - crimes, etc. - and then decide according to law. If you have no criminal derogatory information, it won't matter that Maryland doesn't like you.

There is zero risk in getting your shall-issue permit denied because Maryland denied you for not having G&S. I wish this Urban Legend would simply cease.

JohnPierce · Apr 13, 2012

Not yet but I need to.

Kimerazor · Apr 13, 2012

Mooseman said:
I don't think so. The application was not disapproved, it was simply returned. This is probably why they are handling applications like this. Their record will stand.

Exactly!

JohnPierce · Apr 13, 2012

Patrick said:
Thanks for the link-back.

I will note that the idea of being denied a permit by NJ/MD/CA as being detrimental for getting a permit in a shall-issue state is a bit of fudd. I have never heard of a shall-issue permit being denied because a discretionary issue state doesn't think the right exists. I am aware of the opposite (people getting permits after those states say go away).

The question on those shall-issue permits is simply a way of asking if there is/was derogatory information that another state found that caused a denial. Sometimes people get things expunged; it is fair to ask the reasons you were denied. Florida even asks if you are a fugitive from the law. I love that one.

Maryland people have been denied permits here and then gotten them in Florida, et al. Shall-Issue states follow their laws, and I would much like to see any state that has law allowing a denial based on what Maryland thinks of the 2A right. They ask the question to get better information on the applicant - crimes, etc. - and then decide according to law. If you have no criminal derogatory information, it won't matter that Maryland doesn't like you.

There is zero risk in getting your shall-issue permit denied because Maryland denied you for not having G&S. I wish this Urban Legend would simply cease.

Understood ... It is just a small irritant to have to explain the denial when applying in a shall-issue state. I was just trying to enumerate all of the potential up-side aspects of the move.

petergriffin · Apr 13, 2012

Dead Eye said:
Again, no one is ranting, and yes some gets lost in translation, but it's all been said. Over and over, it's kind of like talking to one of your teenage kids, you say, "hey, this what will happen..." they go ahead and do it anyway. OK, I tried, so go ahead and do it anyway.

The Maryland State Police says that they approve 97% of applications received for a CCW permit. What it doesn't say is how many people have received the same letter even before the Woollard decision. The state can't say that now because they have been flooded with applications post Woollard and pre stay. The more applications received the higher the denial rate will be. Maryland will also not be able to say there is a lack of interest for CCW permits. This is why applications should continue to be submitted regardless of the chance of denial....so long as you can legally own a firearm that is.

Dead Eye · Apr 13, 2012

petergriffin said:
Misguided information? The letter said that if you chose to apply without having G&S you will be denied as nothing has changed since the Woolard decision. I highlighted the exact things you say the letter didn't say in bold. Please understand that I am not part of a clique and I am new here, but why would you say the letter didn't say those things when simply reading the letter would reveal it says clearly you will be denied.

Dear Applicant:

As you may know on March 2, 2012, Judge Benson Everett Legg of the United States District Court for the District of Maryland ruled that Maryland's requirement of a 'good and substantial reason' in Md. Public Safety Code Ann §5-306 for issuance of a handgun permit is "insufficiently tailored to the State's interest in public safety and crime prevention." [Well. That’s one take on, “A citizen may not be required to offer a good and substantial reason why he should be permitted to exercise his rights. The right‘s existence is all the reason he needs.]

However, on March 30, 2012, Judge Legg issued two further orders: first, he made it clear that the effect of his March 2 Memorandum and Order is intended to enjoin the State Police from enforcing the "good and substantial reason" provision in §5-306. Second, he stayed the effect of his injunction. The judge's decision to issue a stay means that the State Police are obligated to continue to apply the law to all permit applications as enacted by the Maryland General Assembly including the "good and substantial reason" requirement. [The MSP is actually required to uphold the law and the constitution. The MSP can and should immediately reinterpret G&S] As of this date, we do not know how long the stay will be in effect. The Attorney General's Office has appealed the judge's decision and the Fourth Circuit will hear the case. We do not have any information on when the case will be heard or when a
decision will be made by the appellate court. [Incredibly, it seems like MSP intends to ignore Legg’s decision any way possible until the Appeals Court acts]

You have recently submitted a permit application in which you have not provided any representation or evidence that you have a good and substantial reason to wear, carry or transport a handgun.[That’s just false in my case] Therefore, rather than processing your application and denying it on that basis, we are retuning your application and fee to you. You have two options: you can resubmit your application and provide a good and substantial reason for your permit request and the State Police will process it as we have always done. Or you can decide that you will not apply for a pemit at this time, but instead will wait for a ruling from the appellate court.

Should you have questions that have not been addressed above or need additional infom1ation, please contact the Maryland State Police Handgun Permit Unit at licensing@mdsp.org. The commander of the Handgun Pem1it Unit may also be reached by mail at 1111 Reisterstown Road, Pikesville, Maryland 21208, or by telephone at 410-653-4500. [The endless options phone tree designed to prevent you from reaching a live person].

Sincerely,

Lieutenant Jack McCauley, Commander
Licensing Division
Maryland State Police

It's all the other stuff. Again ESQ summed it ALL up three pages back. Sorry, but I can't post the 'beating a dead horse' icon, from my cellphone.

50 whatever pages...

If you've applied already, post Woollard and pre stay, your app.is in a pile until the 24th of May.

If you apply now, the MDSP is going to return your app for anything other than "good and substantial".

If you want to continue, notify them and they'll take your money and tell you no, but it keeps your app alive.

Apply with "good and substantial" and they will process it as such.

Did I miss anything?

Inigoes · Apr 13, 2012

Dead Eye said:
It's all the other stuff. Again ESQ summed it ALL up three pages back. Sorry, but I can't post the 'beating a dead horse' icon, from my cellphone.

50 whatever pages...

If you've applied already, post Woollard and pre stay, your app.is in a pile until the 24th of May.

If you apply now, the MDSP is going to return your app for anything other than "good and substantial".

If you want to continue, notify them and they'll take your money and tell you no, but it keeps your app alive.

Apply with "good and substantial" and they will process it as such.

Did I miss anything?

There is nothing magic about May 24th, that is the day after the AG is afforded an opportunity to respond to the plaintiffs argument.

petergriffin · Apr 13, 2012

Dead Eye said:
It's all the other stuff. Again ESQ summed it ALL up three pages back. Sorry, but I can't post the 'beating a dead horse' icon, from my cellphone.

50 whatever pages...

If you've applied already, post Woollard and pre stay, your app.is in a pile until the 24th of May.

If you apply now, the MDSP is going to return your app for anything other than "good and substantial".

If you want to continue, notify them and they'll take your money and tell you no, but it keeps your app alive.

Apply with "good and substantial" and they will process it as such.

Did I miss anything?

Well then I guess you said it all, no need for the thread to continue. Farbeit from me to mistake a discussion on a hot button subject such as this one. Listen up everyone dead-eye said in very few words what took us 25 pages to say so lets not bore him with further discussions on this topic. Which topic would you like to discuss from here deadeye.

Patrick · Apr 13, 2012

Inigoes said:
There is nothing magic about May 24th, that is the day after the AG is afforded an opportunity to respond to the plaintiffs argument.

Exactly. The earliest date we could likely expect to hear from the judge is sometime in June. There is no deadline.

It's all the other stuff. Again ESQ summed it ALL up three pages back. Sorry, but I can't post the 'beating a dead horse' icon, from my cellphone.

Yet you keep beating yours anyway.

BUFF7MM · Apr 13, 2012

Dead Eye said:
It's all the other stuff. Again ESQ summed it ALL up three pages back. Sorry, but I can't post the 'beating a dead horse' icon, from my cellphone.

50 whatever pages...

If you've applied already, post Woollard and pre stay, your app.is in a pile until the 24th of May.

If you apply now, the MDSP is going to return your app for anything other than "good and substantial".

If you want to continue, notify them and they'll take your money and tell you no, but it keeps your app alive.

Apply with "good and substantial" and they will process it as such.

Did I miss anything?

If you think we are beating a dead horse in this thread you can do something about it, Quit posting in this thread. I'm sure everyone here is by now aware of your opinion and has made a mental note of it.

Inigoes · Apr 13, 2012

petergriffin said:
Well then I guess you said it all, no need for the thread to continue. Farbeit from me to mistake a discussion on a hot button subject such as this one. Listen up everyone dead-eye said in very few words what took us 25 pages to say so lets not bore him with further discussions on this topic. Which topic would you like to discuss from here deadeye.

Actually Deadeye was wrong on one aspect.

Depending on when people submitted pre-stay, the personal trials and tribulations would happen between 6/6 and 6/30, based on the documentation that the MSP recieved the application (Cashed Check/Delivery Notification).

lx1x · Apr 13, 2012

Inigoes said:
Actually Deadeye was wrong on one aspect.

Depending on when people submitted pre-stay, the personal trials and tribulations would happen between 6/6 and 6/30, based on the documentation that the MSP recieved the application (Cashed Check/Delivery Notification).

Stop it ! stop it! (lets see if it wrks on mds like it did in the senate) lol

Inigoes · Apr 13, 2012

lx1x said:
Stop it ! stop it! (lets see if it wrks on mds like it did in the senate) lol

That would be like a state engineer designing a green school

Norton · Apr 13, 2012

Dead Eye said:
Nice, bite the hand that's been feeding you. You're acting like the State.

There's no hand feeding me anything and you're gone for another week, since you didn't want to be here at all anyhow.

PERMIT APPLICATION RETURNED

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