Actually shooting, function check and dialing in

Ponder_MD · Dec 16, 2021

Laz, please don't think I'm being argumentative just for the sake of it but I want you to know that Charlie Maloney has told me the exact opposite of all this stuff.

1. He told me to "never" to fire reloads (at least not with the gun that he worked over for me) He was absolutely adamant about this. I have 100 reloads that I'm sitting on because I'm nervous about violating his advice.
2. He said that the adjustable gas ports are a scam and a total waste of money. He told me never to install one.
3. He said that the "bent op-rod" is a myth. He claims he's never seen it happen for the reasons that people claim.

The one area where he agreed with you is to keep the bullet grain weight below 168 and I should be fine.

As a relatively new guy to Garands, you can see why I might be confused.

Ponder_MD · Dec 16, 2021

Woot! Got the last of the cosmoline funk cleaned out of the M44 and installed the first set of shims and cloth from the accurizing kit. A dolla bill slipped nicely under the barrel as it should.

Hopefully I can try it out this weekend to see if there's any improvement.

bigmancrisler · Dec 17, 2021

Ponder_MD said:
Laz, please don't think I'm being argumentative just for the sake of it but I want you to know that Charlie Maloney has told me the exact opposite of all this stuff.

1. He told me to "never" to fire reloads (at least not with the gun that he worked over for me) He was absolutely adamant about this. I have 100 reloads that I'm sitting on because I'm nervous about violating his advice.
2. He said that the adjustable gas ports are a scam and a total waste of money. He told me never to install one.
3. He said that the "bent op-rod" is a myth. He claims he's never seen it happen for the reasons that people claim.

The one area where he agreed with you is to keep the bullet grain weight below 168 and I should be fine.

As a relatively new guy to Garands, you can see why I might be confused.

I think the “never using reloads” is BS imo. I’ve fired hundreds of rounds out of my garand at this point and every single one of them has been a reload. I’ve not fired a single round of factory ammo out of mine and haven’t had an issue.

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lazarus · Dec 17, 2021

bigmancrisler said:
I think the “never using reloads” is BS imo. I’ve fired hundreds of rounds out of my garand at this point and every single one of them has been a reload. I’ve not fired a single round of factory ammo out of mine and haven’t had an issue.

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The reloads would only be either using someone else's. IMHO, I've got exactly one guy I'd trust their reloads on. Doesn't mean most reloaders aren't great at what they do, but its a risk. Did they accidently mess something up? I'd rather that risk be on me.

Or you aren't following a proper powder selection and charge weight for what you are shooting. Charlie is certainly fantastic for working on Garands and I'd defer to him in a heart beat for any work on a Garand. However, no matter his level of experience, there is significantly more data that exists in the wider world as well as a large body of empirical testing on what can damage op rods and ammunition selection as well as adjustable gas plugs, including things like measuring port pressure and op rod velocities. Unless his contention is "excess" op rod velocity can't damage an op rod/receiver or cause it to jump. Other things can also cause op rod damage such as binding, that has nothing to do with ammunition selection/port pressures.

And that all contradicts his advice.

I personally wouldn't run an adjustable gas plug, because I have no desire to shoot commercial ammo than isn't "M2 ball" equivalent (S&B, PPU, Winchester). I will be handloading soon for my Garand, but I have appropriate bullets and powder and will load on the more mild side.

Melnic · Dec 17, 2021

Often, the "never use reloads" comes from non reloaders who don't trust other reloaders.
The important part of reloading is to only shoot your own reloads and to know the gun and what its requirements are before reloading for it.
I won't say I'm a perfect reloader but I only shoot my reloads and don't sell/give my reloads. Only caveat to that is once I GAVE some milsurp reloads I made to someone free w/ a gun I sold and told him to pull the components and re do it.
I can take responsibility for myself.

I have run probably 1000 30-06 reloads through 2 garands and simply followed well documented load data for the Garand using a widely known powder (IMR4895).

The problem he cited likely had to do with people pushing SAMI specs for 30-06 and not Garand specs.
Or the instances of people making squibs and how on a Garand can split the thing apart if you don't clear it first.
There have been many instances of slam fires on Garands with people reloading.
So you get the "never use reloads" crowd

Master Po's data preserved on MDS
https://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=234195

One thing I'll say is once fired HXP/Surplus MUST be primer pocket swaged, otherwise you run the risk of deforming the primer when seating it.
I myself have always swaged my 30-06 but when first starting 223 did not and got a slam fire on an AR (recently) using prepped brass from back when I did not 100% swage and that after investigating, I attributed to a deformed primer from lack of proper swaging.

I would rather make the statement, be careful, be responsible and research the differences of the Garand for reloading 30-06 for it.

Ponder_MD · Dec 17, 2021

Right, we learned that military brass swages the pockets. I made these reloads with the help of an experienced friend. At some point, I am going to fire them but I'll use my CMP Garand.
Just understand that as a relative newcomer to Garands, it's difficult for me to know when to safely deviate from the expert's advice. I know if Scrounger were here, he'd tell me I'm over thinking it.

bigmancrisler · Dec 17, 2021

I can 100% agree with the not shooting other peoples reloads. There’s only 2 people I trust to shoot their reloads aside from my own. And that link for the garand load data is definitely a good one IMO. But I agree I think it comes down to you need to know your rifle and what it likes.

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GuitarmanNick · Dec 17, 2021

I do not understand why a Garand should be treated any differently. I load for all of my toys using a single stage press and have more confidence in my loads than in any factory made rounds. They are more consistent and each one has been inspected many times during the process. Might have a couple of hick-ups along the way, but the rewards are worth the effort.

Loading your own allows you to customize your rounds specifically for the gun if desired. Can't get better than that.

Melnic · Dec 17, 2021

GuitarmanNick said:
I do not understand why a Garand should be treated any differently. I load for all of my toys using a single stage press and have more confidence in my loads than in any factory made rounds. They are more consistent and each one has been inspected many times during the process. Might have a couple of hick-ups along the way, but the rewards are worth the effort.

Loading your own allows you to customize your rounds specifically for the gun if desired. Can't get better than that.

I don't know how well its documented but when you read around the internets the load used in the Garand had a lower velocity and pressure than max specs for 30-06. The big thing is the hunting loads for 30-06 can exceed what was originally and commonly used for the M1 Garand using M2 Ball (I am no expert that that is what sticks in my recollection)

Doco Overboard · Dec 17, 2021

Heres a good representative example of one thing that should be considered when reloading for a Garand.
In addition to the image and variables associated with ammunition.
At the very least, one would do well to make sure they take into account component function, specs and safety features designed into the operating system when making the decision to hand load cartridges.
And then make sure that cartridge head space and chamber headspace agree.
I don't always use #34 primers and rarely ever do but they are available to the person who chooses to use them if they wish.
I do however always clean/inspect primer pockets and then make sure they are uniformed and swaged prior to inserting new primers. On every 3006 case I reload.
An important note about primers is they they are noted as being explosive which means friction, static or a hard blow can ignite the compound.
Port pressure, lubrication, bullet weight etc doesn't mean doodly if the primer is lit off or firing pin contact occurs before the bolt is fully closed and locked.

View attachment 329816

GuitarmanNick · Dec 17, 2021

Melnic said:
I don't know how well its documented but when you read around the internets the load used in the Garand had a lower velocity and pressure than max specs for 30-06. The big thing is the hunting loads for 30-06 can exceed what was originally and commonly used for the M1 Garand using M2 Ball (I am no expert that that is what sticks in my recollection)

Since you know you are loading for a Garand, you can load for the velocity the gun likes.

Most rifles will have a velocity/pressure "sweet spot" where they shoot best with each projectile, and it is usually well below the recommended maximum. The first rule in developing a load is to start low and work up.

Ponder_MD · Dec 18, 2021

Did a little match with the "Maloney" Garand today.
No malfunctions, I did OK. Looking forward to making it a regular thing.

Good times.

Ponder_MD · Dec 23, 2021

I did some experimentation last night with different brands of ammo and different enbloc clips. Here is what I discovered:

Both of my rifles absolutely hate new AEC3 clips. It doesn't matter if you sand off some of the parkerization. It seems to have to do with the guide ribs. I have a ton of the dang things!
- AEC3 clips hate PPU ammunition. Even fastidiously stacking the extractor grooves so that they nestle into each other, the 8th round is very difficult to insert and then the clip is very difficult to insert into the rifle.
- AEC3 clips tolerate HXP and Norma Whitetail much better. These have a noticeably larger extractor groove. If you stack the rounds carefully, this combination will work OK.
- IBW4 and other manufacturers work fine with PPU if you take care to stack the rounds correctly. HXP is great. The rounds seem to stack easily without being OCD about it.

In all cases, if you meet significant resistance inserting the 8th round, you're doing it wrong. You can look at the clip head-on and see that the rounds are contorted in sort of a curve and the enbloc is bulging on one side. When you try to insert the clip, there is significant resistance which will lead to malfunctions. Sometimes you can squeeze and massage the clip and you'll hear a "click" as the PPU extractor grooves settle into each other and the clip will suddenly relax. When you look at the clip head-on, the rounds will be stacked straight and neatly in a staggered formation.

I tested these combinations in both Garands. The CMP rifle has an older op-rod spring so the clips load more easily. The "match" rifle worked over by Charlie Maloney has a brand new op-rod spring which has noticeably more tension. If you can easily load a clip against the spring in that rifle, you've loaded it correctly. Per the advice from one of the guys at the match, I've found a bandolier's worth of "lucky clips" which insert easily and tolerate PPU so I've set these aside.

Thanks to Doco for explaining the extractor groove thing. That was key to understanding the problem.

bigmancrisler · Dec 23, 2021

Ponder_MD said:
I did some experimentation last night with different brands of ammo and different enbloc clips. Here is what I discovered:

Both of my rifles absolutely hate new AEC3 clips. It doesn't matter if you sand off some of the parkerization. It seems to have to do with the guide ribs. I have a ton of the dang things!
- AEC3 clips hate PPU ammunition. Even fastidiously stacking the extractor grooves so that they nestle into each other, the 8th round is very difficult to insert and then the clip is very difficult to insert into the rifle.
- AEC3 clips tolerate HXP and Norma Whitetail much better. These have a noticeably larger extractor groove. If you stack the rounds carefully, this combination will work OK.
- IBW4 and other manufacturers work fine with PPU if you take care to stack the rounds correctly. HXP is great. The rounds seem to stack easily without being OCD about it.

In all cases, if you meet significant resistance inserting the 8th round, you're doing it wrong. You can look at the clip head-on and see that the rounds are contorted in sort of a curve and the enbloc is bulging on one side. When you try to insert the clip, there is significant resistance which will lead to malfunctions. Sometimes you can squeeze and massage the clip and you'll hear a "click" as the PPU extractor grooves settle into each other and the clip will suddenly relax. When you look at the clip head-on, the rounds will be stacked straight and neatly in a staggered formation.

I tested these combinations in both Garands. The CMP rifle has an older op-rod spring so the clips load more easily. The "match" rifle worked over by Charlie Maloney has a brand new op-rod spring which has noticeably more tension. If you can easily load a clip against the spring in that rifle, you've loaded it correctly. Per the advice from one of the guys at the match, I've found a bandolier's worth of "lucky clips" which insert easily and tolerate PPU so I've set these aside.

Thanks to Doco for explaining the extractor groove thing. That was key to understanding the problem.

I’m gonna have to try this, I have like 20 new production en bloc clips and ran into the same issue of it being almost impossible to get the clips to feed into the rifles. I have like 3 GI clips that slip right in. The new production ones I basically have to use both hands to put it into the rifle which is quite unnerving. Now I gotta go unload all them and try again lol.

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Ponder_MD · Dec 23, 2021

I was kind of tired yesterday. I should have mustered the ambition to take photos of all this.

With PPU, I noticed that sometimes the cartridges will look correctly staggered when viewed from the end but the clip would not load easily. I dumped it, reloaded to stagger/nestle the extractor grooves and it was better. PPU shoots fine, good accuracy but they're finicky getting into the clip. You have to pay attention.

bigmancrisler · Dec 23, 2021

I haven’t shot any factory ammo and all my brass is mixed head stamp, I might try sorting it per head stamp and seeing if that changes anything for me.

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SKIP · Dec 23, 2021

I have a 308 and two 30-06 Garands and have never had trouble with enbloc clips.
However, my enbloc clips are all Lake City.

Ponder_MD · Dec 23, 2021

bigmancrisler said:
I haven’t shot any factory ammo and all my brass is mixed head stamp, I might try sorting it per head stamp and seeing if that changes anything for me.

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That brings up an interesting point. I've only shot HXP and PPU. In addition to that Norma stuff, I have old, surplus Turkish. It's supposedly non-corrosive.

bigmancrisler · Dec 23, 2021

Ponder_MD said:
That brings up an interesting point. I've only shot HXP and PPU. In addition to that Norma stuff, I have old, surplus Turkish. It's supposedly non-corrosive.

I think it really is more of the clip rather than the cases because I have this one clip that no matter how I load it, it won’t seat into the rifle. Whereas the GI ones have no issue what so ever.

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smokey · Dec 23, 2021

I've got a little m38 carbine Mosin. It kicks like a mule and spits hot fire. It also shot about a foot high at 100 yds, so I extended the front sight post with a Bic pen tube. I basically cut it so that it shot low and then kept trimming it until it was the correct length. It slips on tight and hasn't moved for a decade or so. Just watch out fir corrosive salts nuking your bore. Boil some water and pour a couple covfefe pots full down the bore after a range trip. The hot water dissolves the salts and dries quickly.

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