Ammo for a Taurus Judge

knastera · Nov 3, 2017

I'm picking up a Judge (steel frame Public Defender, 2" barrel, 2 1/2 chamber) shortly and I'm looking for some input on ammo. For .410 shells, I have Winchester PDX-1 and Fiocchi 000. I have very little experience with 45 LC. I have a few questions (with <10 yard range home defense in mind):
1) Do you feel there is an advantage to mixing in some .45 LC with the shot shells? If so, why?
2) What defensive ammo in 45 LC would you recommend and why?

BTW, I'm not looking to debate the merits of the Judge as a defensive platform. You are perfectly entitled to think it's a bad choice, but that's not what I'm looking for here.

Thanks in advance.

mopar92 · Nov 3, 2017

If I landed in a foreign country with no phone, money and didn't speak the language and was told here's a Judge and your choice of all compatible ammo, I would go with only .45 LC.
I would also pick up Cor Bon or Buffalo Bore ammo or simple LRN ammo.
The thing about .410 shotgun ammo is it's at it's bestest in a 24" shotgun. You lose a lot of velocit, and muzzle energy dropping down to a 2" barrel. You lose energy with the Colt too but not as much.
Not a terrible choice for a barn/snake/toolbox gun.

thomfantomas · Nov 3, 2017

I have some ammo i an sell you Pm if interested!

knastera · Nov 3, 2017

mopar92 said:
If I landed in a foreign country with no phone, money and didn't speak the language and was told here's a Judge and your choice of all compatible ammo, I would go with only .45 LC.
I would also pick up Cor Bon or Buffalo Bore ammo or simple LRN ammo.
The thing about .410 shotgun ammo is it's at it's bestest in a 24" shotgun. You lose a lot of velocit, and muzzle energy dropping down to a 2" barrel. You lose energy with the Colt too but not as much.
Not a terrible choice for a barn/snake/toolbox gun.

Thanks for the info. Hickok45 did a really good piece on the Judge. One of the rounds he used was the PDX-1. It seemed to be most effective between 3 and 7 yards. From what I understand, that round was designed with the Judge in mind.

Biggfoot44 · Nov 3, 2017

From published reports , .45LC fired in combo .410/.45 chambers, while perfectly safe, looses huge amounts of velocity with the long jump to the throat. Like vels in the 400's .

Consistently reported the best accuracy is from Super-X type 255 RNFP , with the hollow based swaged bullets. Not the "improved" lead bullet loads using hard cast bullets.

If I were dropped in the proverbial strange land , with only a Judge available, I would use the 3 pellet 000Buck , and accept the limitation of single digit yards range. ( That would be for 2.5in cylinder, 3in would be 5 pellet 00Buck. Same distance limitations, but denser pattern.)

If you offered a choice between a Judge and a .25acp, I'd have to think really hard.

Added - If you care to disregard my opinions on Judge, and want to know good std pressure .45Colt loads :

Gold Dot. Second choice Silvertip among commonly available.

Pale Ryder · Nov 3, 2017

You may not want to debate the effectiveness for HD, but that's the proverbial gorilla. Please read this first.

I have little experience lately with .410, having left it behind when I discovered 20 and 12 gauges.

If your married to a .45 Colt for HD, use a Ruger or a S&W. If you must have a .410 get a Mossberg.

As mentioned earlier the Judge losses to much velocity, thus energy.

https://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o-truth-41-the-taurus-judge-vs-the-box-o-truth/

Oddway Otts · Nov 3, 2017

One of my quick access home defenders is a Judge (2&1/2 inch cylinder). I have a laser on it & the first three cylinders are loaded with Hornady Critical Defense rounds (a slug & two buck-shot). The last two are full strength 45 L.C. (not the cowboy loads). If you are considering .410 slugs, note that some are 1/4 ounce & others are 1/5th. Admittedly, in a home invasion or similar situation, I'd prefer the Mossberg Persuader with #4 buck-shot, but that isn't always the quickest access.

knastera · Nov 3, 2017

Oddway Otts said:
One of my quick access home defenders is a Judge (2&1/2 inch cylinder). I have a laser on it & the first three cylinders are loaded with Hornady Critical Defense rounds (a slug & two buck-shot). The last two are full strength 45 L.C. (not the cowboy loads). If you are considering .410 slugs, note that some are 1/4 ounce & others are 1/5th. Admittedly, in a home invasion or similar situation, I'd prefer the Mossberg Persuader with #4 buck-shot, but that isn't always the quickest access.

How did you mount a laser on it?

Oddway Otts · Nov 3, 2017

knastera said:
How did you mount a laser on it?

Actually, my son bought it for me. It's a Laserlyte, side mounted laser, made for Taurus & S&W J frame revolvers. It's pretty easy, just replacing two side plate screws.

The web is www.laserlyte.com. It even comes with extra batteries, but I haven't needed them. I also added an ATI Scorpion grip, which really aids in control.

Biggfoot44 · Nov 4, 2017

A proper.45Colt revolver ( Tracker or M450 if you want to stay same brand ) is more or less half the size of a Judge, and more effective.

Biggfoot44 · Nov 8, 2017

Actual test results

Brass Fetcher has done testing of "defense type" .410 loads from a Judge, with his usual throughness. Go there for all the details, but here are some highlights :

#4 Birdshot @ 3.5 Feet gives 4.0 inches penetration in bare 10% gel, 3.6 inches in FBI spec clothing.

000Buck gives 15 inches in bare, 11.4in in clothed.

Win PDX gives 12-ish inch for disc, 3.6in for BB shot , clothed.

Horn Crit Def gives 10-ish inch for both FTX "bullet" , and the two .350 round balls .

Which more or less jibes with my previous comments of small shot being useless other than literal contact non-distance , and large Buckshot being least worst.

Looking at the PDX and CD , I have to observe I don't slavishly worship the FBI guideline of absolute min of 12.0 inches . * To Me* , I would give the comparitive nod to three decent sized projectiles @ 10in each , over 1 @ 12in .

Also of note - To contain impacts onto a 6x6 gel block , distances were limited to 7.0 Feet ( not yards) with Buckshot and Crit Def , and 3.5 Feet ( not yards) for Birdshot and PDX . Yeah , yeah for defensive use larger spread could be still useful, let's say keep the rounds in torso sized grouping , with center of mass poa . Call that maybe 18-20 inches , would make that into single digit yards, preferably not high single digit yards.

Added - If anyone were actually interested in actual anti- snake duty , you would want pattern density above all ( snakes heads being small) . 1/2oz of #8.5 or #9 .

knastera · Nov 8, 2017

Biggfoot44 said:
Brass Fetcher has done testing of "defense type" .410 loads from a Judge, with his usual throughness. Go there for all the details, but here are some highlights :

#4 Birdshot @ 3.5 Feet gives 4.0 inches penetration in bare 10% gel, 3.6 inches in FBI spec clothing.

000Buck gives 15 inches in bare, 11.4in in clothed.

Win PDX gives 12-ish inch for disc, 3.6in for BB shot , clothed.

Horn Crit Def gives 10-ish inch for both FTX "bullet" , and the two .350 round balls .

Which more or less jibes with my previous comments of small shot being useless other than literal contact non-distance , and large Buckshot being least worst.

Looking at the PDX and CD , I have to observe I don't slavishly worship the FBI guideline of absolute min of 12.0 inches . * To Me* , I would give the comparitive nod to three decent sized projectiles @ 10in each , over 1 @ 12in .

Also of note - To contain impacts onto a 6x6 gel block , distances were limited to 7.0 Feet ( not yards) with Buckshot and Crit Def , and 3.5 Feet ( not yards) for Birdshot and PDX . Yeah , yeah for defensive use larger spread could be still useful, let's say keep the rounds in torso sized grouping , with center of mass poa . Call that maybe 18-20 inches , would make that into single digit yards, preferably not high single digit yards.

Added - If anyone were actually interested in actual anti- snake duty , you would want pattern density above all ( snakes heads being small) . 1/2oz of #8.5 or #9 .

Thanks for the specifics. Right now, I'm thinking of going with a mix of PDX and Super-X 1800 fps hollow point deer slugs.

Biggfoot44 · Nov 8, 2017

OPPs ! I messed up big time . I didn't read your first post carefully enough .

The quoted performences from Brass Fetcher were from a Three inch bbl , rather than your Two inch . And thus were substantially OVERstated compared to you can expect from your gun.

Most of the available data id for 2.75 and 3.0 in bbl , 2 in data is a lot thinner . The one I did quickly find velocity ( but not gel ) data for was PDX . From 2in the vels are low 600's , but inconsistent.

The slug vels I found were from an early 4in Judge, and even less relevant. But I will ask, do you realive the nominal 1/5oz slugs weigh 92-96 gr . Thats about 50% more than a single 000Buck pellet, but waaaay less than a 3 or 4 pellet load. Or of 250/255 .45Colt .

Brass Fetcher does have testing of individual pellets of Buck at different vels . I have to run out right now, I don't think he tested that low, since it was alread short of his interpretation of acceptable penetration around 800fps .

knastera · Nov 8, 2017

Biggfoot44 said:
OPPs ! I messed up big time . I didn't read your first post carefully enough .

The quoted performences from Brass Fetcher were from a Three inch bbl , rather than your Two inch . And thus were substantially OVERstated compared to you can expect from your gun.

Most of the available data id for 2.75 and 3.0 in bbl , 2 in data is a lot thinner . The one I did quickly find velocity ( but not gel ) data for was PDX . From 2in the vels are low 600's , but inconsistent.

The slug vels I found were from an early 4in Judge, and even less relevant. But I will ask, do you realive the nominal 1/5oz slugs weigh 92-96 gr . Thats about 50% more than a single 000Buck pellet, but waaaay less than a 3 or 4 pellet load. Or of 250/255 .45Colt .

Brass Fetcher does have testing of individual pellets of Buck at different vels . I have to run out right now, I don't think he tested that low, since it was alread short of his interpretation of acceptable penetration around 800fps .

I know about the slug weight. The velocity is much higher than 000. One of the choices I'm still working on is do I go with a slower, but way heavier 45 LC or a lighter and faster 410 deer slug?

Biggfoot44 · Nov 8, 2017

Advantages Slug - Less recoil .

Higher velocity is relative . From 4 inch Judge vels are in upper 1200's . Nobody seems to have published slug tests since shortly after the introduction of the Judge. Foster slugs would break up from 4in , decide for yourself if that is desireable or not . I would think the Breneeke slugs would not break up if so desired. WAG for 2in vels with slugs to +/- 1100fps .

Advantage .45Colt - As per a recent-ish press demo covered by .410handgun (dot) com , the W-W PDX 225 Bonded JHP fired from Three inch Judge penetrated decently and expanded to .70 plus . I'll defer to W-W's R&D that a 225gr gives decent balance of weight and vel for a Judge. I would guesstimate that reduced vel from 2in would give about same penetration , with probably less expansion.

From those tests , I was actually more impressed with the Super X 3 pellet 000Buck than the PDX mixed load . The BB pellets add nothing useful, and slow down the velocity with their weight . The straight 000B load is faster and penetrates better. It shows a tendency for the top pellet to penetrate deep, and the other two more deformed ones to go still about an inch deeper than PDX disks .

********

Now knowing more about Judge terminal ballistic than I ever wanted to know ; looks as if the least worst options :

1. 3 pellet OOOBuck ( Not the Federal 4 pellet )
2. PDX 225 JHP .

Mixing them a coin toss .

Not totally suck additional options :

1. PDX disc & BB
2. Generic 255 RNFP ( not cowboy) , locally most seen as WIN SUPER X .

********

And in a proper .410 in shotgun forma, at shotgun velocities , the answer would be 5 pellet 000Buck

knastera · Nov 8, 2017

Biggfoot44 said:
Advantages Slug - Less recoil .

Higher velocity is relative . From 4 inch Judge vels are in upper 1200's . Nobody seems to have published slug tests since shortly after the introduction of the Judge. Foster slugs would break up from 4in , decide for yourself if that is desireable or not . I would think the Breneeke slugs would not break up if so desired. WAG for 2in vels with slugs to +/- 1100fps .

Advantage .45Colt - As per a recent-ish press demo covered by .410handgun (dot) com , the W-W PDX 225 Bonded JHP fired from Three inch Judge penetrated decently and expanded to .70 plus . I'll defer to W-W's R&D that a 225gr gives decent balance of weight and vel for a Judge. I would guesstimate that reduced vel from 2in would give about same penetration , with probably less expansion.

From those tests , I was actually more impressed with the Super X 3 pellet 000Buck than the PDX mixed load . The BB pellets add nothing useful, and slow down the velocity with their weight . The straight 000B load is faster and penetrates better. It shows a tendency for the top pellet to penetrate deep, and the other two more deformed ones to go still about an inch deeper than PDX disks .

********

Now knowing more about Judge terminal ballistic than I ever wanted to know ; looks as if the least worst options :

1. 3 pellet OOOBuck ( Not the Federal 4 pellet )
2. PDX 225 JHP .

Mixing them a coin toss .

Not totally suck additional options :

1. PDX disc & BB
2. Generic 255 RNFP ( not cowboy) , locally most seen as WIN SUPER X .

********

And in a proper .410 in shotgun forma, at shotgun velocities , the answer would be 5 pellet 000Buck

Thanks for doing all that leg work. I have a bunch of Fiocchi 3 pellet. I was looking at the PDX.

Ammo for a Taurus Judge

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