Chassepot needle rifle: Better than s...shooting

Threeband · May 31, 2016

Pretty cartridges!

whistlersmother · May 31, 2016

Nice, very nice. Not only the cartridges, but tools to verify them also.

SlowShooter · May 31, 2016

SKIP said:
Patent Pending?

It's cheaper to give away the idea than to file for the patent in this case. It's just a minor little thing that may help with quality control.

SlowShooter · May 31, 2016

Blacksmith101 said:
Nice looking ammo. Just go back to post #5 to see how far you have come, sometimes we have trouble seeing our own progress because we are so close to the problem. You are doing great!

In post #5, I put other people's experiences in my package then crossed the fingers. Now I start understanding how the whole thing works and I want to do thing my way. I always think, even reverse engineering needs to be effective, simple and cheap. I hope next weekend these little cartridges will prove my point.

SlowShooter · May 31, 2016

Thanks everyone for cheering! I hope I don't turn this thread into a reality show.

pappa · May 31, 2016

Threeband said:
Another improvement in the Chassepot: the bolt handle turns 90 degrees from vertical to horizontal and locks positively. The Dreyse bolt sort of wedges closed, with the bolt handle sticking up like a sore thumb somewhere around one or two o'clock. You can see that clearly in the photos in the other thread.
Here is the Dreyse with the bolt "locked". That's it, folks.

Remember, people back then were used to guns having big huge hammers sticking up in a similar location. That bolt handle sticking up didn't seem so odd, I'm sure.

Most mil-surp rifles bolts stick out at 3 o'clock position. That is why gunsmiths bend the bolts to lie to the 6 O'clock position when customizing into sporter,
with probable scope installation.
Practical reason is that with heavy usage under dirty fighting conditions, and infrequent heavy charges in ammo, the bolt may be difficult to open. It is easiest if palm of hand can be brought abruptly upward against bottom of horizontal bolt handle.
While 2 o'clock is 30° above 3 o'clock, I don't think troops would have seen much different. I do have a few mil-surps made with bolt handles to 6 o'clock but they are the exception.
The Chassepot is a neat weapon. Reminds me of my Lebel in some ways.
Long after the Dreyse needle gun ballisticians were still experimenting with ignition of front of powder charge. Some claimed better, more consistent ignition of the powder. Don't see that even a small improvement would make it worth the trouble. But then, powders have improved so greatly in last 100+ years that maybe their efforts were understandable for the powders back then. .Pat

Threeband · May 31, 2016

This is a good thread, and will be a great resource for future Chassepotiers.

SlowShooter · Jun 2, 2016

There are some info I fail to mention after last ammo test:

- The needle is not only extended to about 78mm (if I remember correctly which is 3mm longer than normal) but it also retains the sharp needle head. The flat screw driver head with more contact surface does not work well for this application as I thought with percussion musket. with more exposure to the heat, I think the needle will be soften quicker and will be broken sooner. To deal with this issue, I will re-harden the needle every now and then. anyhow, my needles are very easy to fabricate and cost just a few dollars for a box of 25.

- The rubber hose for the Obturator works real well (no leakage). After about 20 shots, it looks almost new. I think if the French got their hands on modern day material such as scotch masking tape, synthetic rubber, white printer paper... they would keep the Chassepot in service longer.

Threeband · Jun 2, 2016

pappa said:
Most mil-surp rifles bolts stick out at 3 o'clock position...

My point was the Dreyse bolt does not go anywhere near that far down to 3:00/ 90 degrees. More like one o'clock, or wherever it happens to wedge shut. There is no specific stop. It depends how hard you wedge it down.

I read that soldiers would bang the bolt handle with a rock.

Point is the Dreyse is totally different from a modern rifle. The Chassepot is like a modern rifle.
.

SlowShooter · Jun 3, 2016

I am not a small arms historian, but...just like everyone else, I can see the military rifle's bolt evolved from 2 O'clock to 3 O'clock then to 4' then to 5' O'clock. I haven't seen a 6 O'clock bolt placement yet but it may be on the way.

I checked my inventory of surplus bolt guns, and I saw roughly 1/3 of them have bolts at 3 O'clock, the rest elsewhere.

pappa · Jun 3, 2016

Threeband said:
My point was the Dreyse bolt does not go anywhere near that far down to 3:00/ 90 degrees.
More like one o'clock, or
"wherever it happens to wedge shut."
A: Threeband. You can take my turn firing that!

There is no specific stop. It depends how hard you wedge it down. A: Just keeps getting worse!

I read that soldiers would bang the bolt handle with a rock.

Point is the Dreyse is totally different from a modern rifle. The Chassepot is like a modern rifle. A: Got you. I honestly know little about the Chassepot, but learned much from this thread. Thank you.
.

Thanks very much. Before your explanations I guess I had thought no basic differences. I like old guns. My oldest is an early Swiss Vetterli, then an 1886 Lebel. So much character and history. Pat

SlowShooter · Jun 5, 2016

I shot the latest batch of ammo yesterday at 200 yard range (they closed the 100 yard range). 9 out of 10 went bang (1 failure due to a bad percussion cap that could not be ignited). a few needed a second strikes but all burned very quickly and produced no hang fire. The first 3 shots landed on the paper and formed a group of 10". The fourth hit the bottom frame and the rest missed the target. I guess they went below the bottom frame due to dirty bore. However the vertical spread was very good at about 7 inches.

Lessons learned from this trial:

1- I used 75gr 2F and about 10gr 4F powder. This proved to be too dirty for the rifle to burn compared to to earlier tests. Black powder amount must be reduced, but I don't know how much yet.

2- Too much masking tape is not a good idea. big chunk of the tape left inside the bore for every shot. However this give me an idea. We could make a bullet proof vest out of masking tape and duct tape ( just joking).

whistlersmother · Jun 5, 2016

Nice. Sounds like the cartridge production / ignition problems are mostly solved and its on to bigger things - like powder loads

I wonder if the original designers' notes are languishing in some farmhouse attic...

SlowShooter · Jun 5, 2016

whistlersmother said:
Nice. Sounds like the cartridge production / ignition problems are mostly solved and its on to bigger things - like powder loads

I wonder if the original designers' notes are languishing in some farmhouse attic...

I don't know when but next test will be for bullet's speed and accuracy while keeping powder fouling in chamber and bore to minimum. I will not spend the rest of my life fooling around with the paper cartridges because French engineers never perfected the Chassepot rifle and its ammo. This is why they came up with the Gras rifle with the metal cartridges in a few years after putting the Chassepots in the service. Even the black powder metal ammo was a pain in wars so the French invented the smokeless powder to resolved the issue for good but cartridges only perfected after non-corrosive primers has been found.

SlowShooter · Jul 10, 2016

Hello everyone

I am back with a batch of new and improved Chassepot cartridges. This time I use 65gr 2F plus 5gr 4F as ignition starter powder. The rest of the space in the cartridge is filled with dryer lint. The bullets are the same. They are 340gr 11mm, part # 446110 from Western Bullet Co. Look at the picture, you can see that I use much less Masking Tape at the base. No glue is used on the fabrication of the ammo.

This time I am looking for cleaner chamber and bore. No more Masking Tape left in the bore after shooting. I am also looking for 1200ft/sec for the muzzle velocity. This velocity and this kind of bullet work real well with my Gras rifles.

Next Saturday I will conduct the test together with the steel gong plinking load test for my 1903-A3.

SlowShooter · Jul 21, 2016

The test conducted last Saturday was a success. All went bang with first trigger pulls. I only cleaned the chamber once after the fifth shot. There were no hang fire and the group of 10 at 50 yards looked really convincing. By looking at the shot numbers on the paper, I believed that the black powder fouling in the barrel had no effect on the accuracy with the first 10 rounds. This test also has proved that my way of paper patch (masking tape patch) really works.

Even Though 65gr of 2F plus 5gr of 4F have proved to be cleaner, it did not provide enough force to spit out the percussion caps. Some of them stuck on the firing pin. How ever I still love this formular. At 1101.6 ft/sec (for 340 gr ball) it is quite accurate and has no leading issue.

Next test I will shoot the Chassepot off hand (standing) at 12" gong at 100 yards using the same load formula. Wait and see. Thanks.

Blacksmith101 · Jul 21, 2016

That group is good enough to get the job done. Good shooting and great job getting an old war horse back in harness.

whistlersmother · Jul 21, 2016

Ha! You (and the gun) shoot better with 1870 technology and home-made cartridges than I do with modern guns and production grade ammo.

I assume the cap sticking on the firing pin is more of a annoyance than anything.

Nice...

Threeband · Jul 21, 2016

Great success!

I'll bet you got a big sense of satisfaction watching shot after shot go right into that group.

SlowShooter · Jul 23, 2016

Blacksmith101 said:
That group is good enough to get the job done. Good shooting and great job getting an old war horse back in harness.

I forget to mention that the group was done on a rifle rest (front only). At about 1100ft/sec, the bullets will take a while to fly to the 100 yard target, very much similar to shooting 22LRs at 100 yard target. I did try to shoot my Martini Henry with 1000ft/sec reduced loads a couple of weeks ago and it was fun. Pull the trigger, the rifle goes bang then wait ...wait...and wait some more ... then diiiing. sweet! With the Chassepot, it will be a bit trickier because of the slower locktime. All I need are hoding the rifle a little harder and a little more luck.

Chassepot needle rifle: Better than s...shooting

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