Banned ARs, Pistols, SBRs, Some questions

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  • atblis

    Ultimate Member
    May 23, 2010
    2,011
    So would an AR15 pistol, 223/5.56, with 16" or greater barrel, non "HBAR", ARM braced, be illegal under MD law?
     

    outrider58

    Eats Bacon Raw
    MDS Supporter
    Jul 29, 2014
    49,818
    Pistols need to be under 26" IIRC

    SBR need to be over 29"

    Neither have to be Hbar
     

    DaemonAssassin

    Why should we Free BSD?
    Jun 14, 2012
    23,970
    Political refugee in WV
    Pistols need to be under 26" IIRC

    SBR need to be over 29"

    Neither have to be Hbar

    Pistol can have any length barrel, but it is generally accepted as one that has a barrel of less than 16" long. The 26" you are thinking about is the minimum OAL to be able to put a VFG on a pistol, without having to register ti as an AOW.
     

    atblis

    Ultimate Member
    May 23, 2010
    2,011
    Need a flow chart of this crap.

    No disrespect at all, but why would you want a braced pistol at >=16" barrel length?

    Just for pencil/gov't profile?

    Partially. It's more about overall selection. If you're limited to barrels that are either marketed as and or marked "HBAR" or I suppose "Heavy" may work, that rules out most barrels. What about an "SPR" profile barrel? What about a "SOCOM" profile barrel. The Larue Stealth barrels are stated as being Medium. They're kind of a heavy medium IMO.

    Plus I am always highly amused by so called "loopholes". They're not loopholes, they just wrote a garbage law. But hey, that's actually the plan is it not?
     

    atblis

    Ultimate Member
    May 23, 2010
    2,011
    I think I am following you guys now. What a flustercluck.

    Looking at this
    http://www.scotts-gunsmithing.com/important-maryland-firearm-laws/

    It looks like anything with a barrel <16" is a handgun in Maryland.
    or
    anything with barrel >16" but less <26" OAL is also a handgun

    so

    Is this then right?

    A Pistol >16" barrel and >29" OAL doesn't meet the definition of a handgun, but it also doesn't meet the definition of a rifle, and also is not a copy cat (no folding stock, etc.). Problem I see, is that Maryland could have a different opinion about the arm braces and could claim that it is intended to be fired from the shoulder.

    What's also weird to me is that they mention the Federal definition of concealable, but they never say that it applies to MD law. It's just in there like it's extra information. Okay, that's what the Feds do, so what?

    Handgun
    (1) "Handgun" means a Pistol, Revolver, or other Firearm capable of being concealed on the person

    Federal Law (N.F.A.) defines “Concealable” as a Rifle or Shotgun with an OAL under 26.00”.
    ; or

    (2) "Handgun" means a Firearm with a Barrel less than 16 inches in length; or
    (3) "Handgun" includes a Short-Barreled Shotgun if the BArrel is shorter then 16.00" in length;
    (4) "Handgun" includes a Short-Barreled Rifle;
    (5) "Handgun" includes a Any Other Weapon;
    (5) "Handgun" does not include a Shotgun, Rifle, or Antique Firearm;
    (6) "Handgun" includes Signal, Starter, and Blank Pistols.

    Rifle
    (1) "Rifle" means a weapon that is designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder; and
    (2) Designed or redesigned, and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed Metallic Cartridge to fire only a single Projectile through a Rifled Bore for each single pull of the Trigger.
     

    holesonpaper

    Active Member
    Mar 10, 2017
    913
    Hazzard county
    Not sure I follow the logic. KISS - <16" barrel falls into handgun (whether pistol or SBR - which as SBR is considered a handgun under MD law). A SBR also must be >29" OAL. With either, the barrel profile no longer matters (not a lawyer just my interpretation of the law).

    I don't understand why you'd want a 16" barrel on a pistol. Different strokes for different folks... Our friends in blue might see this as ???? Dot your I's, cross those T's - and don't get into the gray area.

    IMO - just submit a form 1 for a SBR although it's a PITA (form 20 - limited date window) to cross state lines. A form 1 generally takes 2-4 weeks for approval.
     

    outrider58

    Eats Bacon Raw
    MDS Supporter
    Jul 29, 2014
    49,818
    I think I am following you guys now. What a flustercluck.

    Looking at this
    http://www.scotts-gunsmithing.com/important-maryland-firearm-laws/

    It looks like anything with a barrel <16" is a handgun in Maryland.
    or
    anything with barrel >16" but less <26" OAL is also a handgun

    so

    Is this then right?

    A Pistol >16" barrel and >29" OAL doesn't meet the definition of a handgun, but it also doesn't meet the definition of a rifle, and also is not a copy cat (no folding stock, etc.). Problem I see, is that Maryland could have a different opinion about the arm braces and could claim that it is intended to be fired from the shoulder.

    What's also weird to me is that they mention the Federal definition of concealable, but they never say that it applies to MD law. It's just in there like it's extra information. Okay, that's what the Feds do, so what?

    It's as if they follow Fed law, except where they don't, they leave blank in some cases. F'ing Merryland! :banghead:
     

    atblis

    Ultimate Member
    May 23, 2010
    2,011
    Not sure I follow the logic. KISS - <16" barrel falls into handgun (whether pistol or SBR - which as SBR is considered a handgun under MD law). A SBR also must be >29" OAL. With either, the barrel profile no longer matters (not a lawyer just my interpretation of the law).

    I don't understand why you'd want a 16" barrel on a pistol. Different strokes for different folks... Our friends in blue might see this as ???? Dot your I's, cross those T's - and don't get into the gray area.

    IMO - just submit a form 1 for a SBR although it's a PITA (form 20 - limited date window) to cross state lines. A form 1 generally takes 2-4 weeks for approval.
    The pistol arm braces have gotten really interesting. That's why.
     

    Pinecone

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 4, 2013
    28,175
    In the 1950s, Colt resumed manufacture of the Single Action Army and made a Buntline version, due to customer demand. The barrels are marked on the left side "COLT BUNTLINE SPECIAL .45". A few third-generation Buntlines were manufactured in the late 1970s, as well.[12] Colt manufactured 70 New Frontier Buntline Specials from 1962 to 1967 with 12-inch barrels and folding target sights, chambered in .45 Colt.[13]

    The 1873 Buntline Target is an Italian 6-shot single-action revolver chambered for the .357 Magnum or the .45 Colt cartridges, manufactured by A. Uberti, Srl. The revolver has an 18-inch barrel with no muzzle brake or ports. It comes with a walnut grip and a dark blue finish.[14]

    The Navy Arms Frontier Buntline Model is a 6-shot single-action revolver chambered for the .357 Magnum or the .45 Colt cartridges, manufactured for Navy Arms. The revolver has a 16.5-inch barrel with no muzzle brake or ports. It comes with a walnut grip and a detachable shoulder stock.

    From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colt_Buntline
     

    swinokur

    In a State of Bliss
    Patriot Picket
    Apr 15, 2009
    55,395
    Westminster USA
    MSP says it can be a pistol and a rifle at the same time.

    Don't try to use logic. It's MD.
    .
    The only plus is an SBR no longer needs to be on the handgun Roster for sale or transfer.

    That was changed by legislation.
     

    Attachments

    • 3-26-14 LD-FRS-14-002 - Short Barreled Shotguns and Short Barreled Rifles.pdf
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    Biggfoot44

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 2, 2009
    32,884
    I *think* I understand where the OP is coming from.

    He wants an AR-ish ( thing that goes bang) that wears an arm brace , and is not subject to the transport restrictions of 4-203 . Yes , this can be done .

    Hard Limit parameter is 16.1 in bbl . Additionally due to the nature of the AR design, the ( thing that goes bang ) will inherently be over 26in QAL with such a barrel length .

    Such a ( thing that goes bang ) will be neither a rifle, nor a pistol . It will be an Other . Other is a real catagory .

    Greater than 26in OAL removes it from Federal definition of Handgun.

    16in bbl removes it from Md transport regulations.

    Being greater than 26in OAL removes it from Federal definition of SBR or other flavor of NFA item .

    Not being a Rifle removes it from the bbl profile issues of FSA 13 .

    OP didn't ask yet , but such a hypothetical (thing that goes bang ) could wear a vertical Fore Grip if so desired .

    ***********

    Is such a hypothetical( thing that goes bang ) a worthwhile and meaningful Endevor ?

    I dunno , It would be a personally subjective judgement.

    If someone wished an "Other" , with a VFG on purpose , then sure.

    If the primary goal was somthing close to a 16in carbine w/ pencil bbl , within meeting the letter of Md law , it probably wouldn't be worthwhile to me personally . * To Me * the advantage of having a real stock is of greater magnitude, than having to deal with a Maryland complient fluted bbl . YMMV .

    ************

    The above pontificating is subject to current Advisory Letters from both ATF and MSP . Either organization could issue a different Advisory Letter(s) tomorrow.
     

    atblis

    Ultimate Member
    May 23, 2010
    2,011
    I *think* I understand where the OP is coming from.
    It's not a want/need thing. I was just thinking through the whole legality thing and was more generally interested in Fed law about pistol braces and started thinking about how it fit in to Maryland law. It's more that I find this whole thing amusing. I'll probably head down the SBR path anyways.

    I wasn't aware of the 4-203 angle to the whole things. Makes it that much more amusing.

    Maryland laws are terribly written. It's laughable.
     

    holesonpaper

    Active Member
    Mar 10, 2017
    913
    Hazzard county
    Apologies - still not sure I follow. >=16" and I believe every interpretation of, it still classifies as a rifle. I don't see how it falls into an "other".

    Go 14.5" pistol or full SBR. The pistol braces are ok but really none of us "want" that. It really falls into a loophole that we can live with - with decent options getting better daily.
     

    swinokur

    In a State of Bliss
    Patriot Picket
    Apr 15, 2009
    55,395
    Westminster USA
    If it’s > 16” barrel and > 26” but designed to be fired with one hand it’s not a rifle.

    It’s defined as a firearm.
     

    Biggfoot44

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 2, 2009
    32,884
    Not designed to be fired from shoulder = Not a rifle . ( Same concept with shotguns. That's why ( shotgun-like things with pistol grip only ) are Not shotguns , and must be 21 to purchase , and are marked as Other on 4473 , instead of Shotgun .

    A rifled ( thing that goes bang ) , greater than 26in OAL , Not designed to be fired from shoulder , can be stated with confidence to Not be a rifle . Thereby not be subject to barrel profile restrictions under FSA .

    The interpretation of arm braces has gone back and forth , and only require an ATF Lab employee to break out a typewriter to change once again . ( Meaning the hypothetical firearm wouldn't have issues ever being used as a handgun , but the wink, nod use as shouldered is dependent upon most recent ATF letter, currently legal .)
     

    outrider58

    Eats Bacon Raw
    MDS Supporter
    Jul 29, 2014
    49,818
    Found these on the interwebz. Kinda intersting...

    First is off the ATF site and the second is Wikipedia;

    https://www.atf.gov/firearms/firear...irearms-national-firearms-act-definitions-any

    Firearms Verification
    National Firearms Act Definitions
    Any Other Weapon

    26 U.S.C. § 5845(E)

    For the purposes of the National Firearms Act, the term “Any Other Weapon” means:

    Any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive;

    A pistol or revolver having a barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell;

    Weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12 inches or more, less than 18 inches in length, from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading; and

    Any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire.

    Such term shall not include a pistol or a revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons designed, made, or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition.

    Examples of “Any Other Weapon” include:

    Image of National Firearms Act weapons: H&R Handy Guns, Ithaca Auto-Burglar Guns, and Marble Game Getters

    Image of National Firearms Act (NFA) Any Other Weapon: Wallet Guns, Cane Guns, Knife Guns, and Pen Guns

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Title_II_weapons#Any_other_weapon

    Any other weapon
    The Serbu Super-Shorty pump-action shotgun, manufactured without a buttstock, is an AOW smooth-bore handgun, not an SBS.
    A disguised firearm such as this cell phone gun is an AOW.

    "Any other weapon" is a "catch-all" category. An AOW as defined as "any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive," other than a handgun with a rifled barrel".[3] This umbrella definition includes many improvised firearms ("zip guns") and disguised firearms. Examples include wallet guns, cane guns, knife guns and pen guns.[19] An AOW can be transferred to non-prohibited persons with a $5 BATF stamp as opposed to the $200 stamp required for machine guns and short-barreled rifles.

    AOW is a complex and often misunderstood category of NFA firearms. Less obvious examples of AOW devices include:

    Short-barreled shotguns manufactured without a shoulder stock (less than 26" overall length)
    They are smooth-bore handguns which fire shot shells, not shotguns, which must be designed to be fired from the shoulder.
    Pistols with a second vertical grip
    Many pistols feature a rail below the barrel, commonly used to mount a laser or flashlight. Attaching a vertical grip to this rail constitutes the manufacturing of an AOW firearm, as it is "no longer designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand."[20] It is therefore illegal to place an aftermarket vertical foregrip on any pistol without first registering it as an AOW and paying the $200 "making and registering tax". Failure to do so is a felony punishable by up to 10 years in prison.[20] However, if the receiver was originally manufactured to accept either a long or short barrel and a removal buttstock and fore grip and it can be assembled either as a rifle or a pistol, according to ATF rule 2011-4 it is not considered an NFA weapon as long as it is only assembled as a pistol without a buttstock or as a rifle with a barrel at least 16 inches long.[21] A vertical foregrip MAY be added to a pistol as long as the Overall Length (OAL) is greater than 26", regardless of barrel length, and providing the weapon remains unconcealed.[22] An AR-15 pistol with an overall length of 26" or longer may have a vertical foregrip installed, as long as no buttstock is installed in conjunction with a shorter than 16" barrel. The Sig Sauer Pistol Braces (SBS and SBX) are commonly found on these AR-15 style pistols with vertical foregrips since they are not considered buttstocks. The ATF does not consider a weapon in this configuration to be an AOW, but instead classifies it as a 'Firearm' which does not require any tax stamp or additional registration.
    Firearms having combination rifle and shotgun barrels, more than 12 inches but less than 18 inches long from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading
    these are designed to be fired from the shoulder. An example is the Marble Game Getter an early 20th-century sporting gun sold before the NFA.[23]
     

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