.223, like it were 22 hornet

fidelity said:

Yeah, agree. It's a bit a no free lunch issue with regards to the performance constraints. Understand that the OP wants to approach this economically, and is wondering if there's a path.

But considering suppressability and performance for larger varmint size game, I think a larger payload helps. Something going 2000+ fps will be noisier than something going under 1100 fps. The 200+ grain 300 BLK round will have better terminal effects.

Subsonic 300 BLK zeroed at 100 drops 12 inches at 150 yards and quite a bit more thereafter, so that is a disadvantage if someone is keen to shoot 200-300 yards. However the accuracy of the bullets at 100 yard and greater differences is really excellent. By contrast, 22LR and 22WMR groups really open up in most platforms at 100 or greater yards. (realize that he's looking at 223 bullets which likely retain spin better even at slower speeds)

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Don't disagree. But your thoughts have gone from 22 caliber to a jump to 30 caliber, which is why I don't disagree, especially with regard to the terminal end.

Where I'm scratching my head is with 22 caliber. I suppose that one could try to lob a 62 grain or heavier .224 pill out of a faster 7, 8 or 9 twist barrel. But then add the suppressor. Sounds like a good way to throw subsonic knuckleballs to me, and "why" really comes to mind first and foremost. But there's such a thing as "why not" too. Maybe I'm missing something?

Uncle Duke said:

OP, what do you see as the advantage of having a .22 centerfire, and then wanting to load it down to a point where you can effectively turn it into what a subsonic 22 rimfire would otherwise be? What am I missing?

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Reloadability of a centerfire in part. But if I could find something that would stabilize heavier bullets, a spot we 75-77gr .224 boat tail at 1000-1050fps has quite a bit more performance and less drop than a round nose, rebated flat base .223 45gr bullet at 970fps (typical heavier 22lr subsonic). At 100yds that is roughly double the energy and somewhat less drop.

Running 55fmjs would still give a fair whack of extra energy and less drop.

No, it’s not a massive problem if it can’t be done. Just curious.

It is really a “why not”. Heck with a 6.5:1 twist or 6:1 twist and you could probably handle 85 or 90gr bullets at subsonic velocities. Use the same bullet design of the 308 subs that have the large petals that open up at slow impact speeds, it would CREAM up through varmint sized critters and be super quiet.

I don’t anticipate anyone will do that. Just run a 300BO.

To add, he’ll I got a baggie of PPU 156gr SPRN bullets because I am curious if I can get it to stabilize out of my 1:8 Howa 1500 6.5 Grendel barrel. If it does stabilize subsonic that could be a fun ground hog round, suppressed at short range.

"Heck with a 6.5:1 twist or 6:1 twist and you could probably handle 85 or 90gr bullets at subsonic velocities"

I doubt it. (Opinion only - I haven't run the numbers or researched) The 224Valkyrie will stabilize 88 ELD's and 90gr. SMK's at ~2600fps+ in a 7T, but many (like mine) are 6.5T to stay away from the edge. I doubt a 85/90gr. .224 pill will stabilize at subsonic velocities with even a 6 or 6.5T. A good varmint bullet in 40-55gr?

It would be useful to check on what twists are needed to stabilize various .224 bullets at slightly subsonic velocities.

https://bergerbullets.com/twist-rate-calculator/

https://bisonballistics.com/calculators/stability

http://kwk.us/twist.html

Some interesting results . . .

I get it , I really do , about thrashing out concepts , and trying experemental things for the curiosity and knowledge seeking .

* Can * it be done ? Yes , at the very least very probably so .

With the added parameters of using readily available , moderate priced platform , And Cheap component projectiles , no it's not there . You need to either scale back your goals , or step up expendatures for gunsmithing and ammo components .

[ Insert plethora of more complex solutions , OR plethora of off the shelf answer that could meet some , possibly most of parameters , but not all . I won't clog the thread preemptively listing all of both , but we can tackle specifics if an revised goal is put forth .]

Subsonic .223

"thrashing out concepts , and trying experemental things for the curiosity and knowledge seeking"

Of the “interesting results”

1 - The 221Fireball, with its factory 14T twist, will NOT be a subsonic option.

2 – Just by twist calculator numbers only it looks like a 70-ish grain bullet will marginally stabilize in an 8T barrel at ~900fps. (I chose 60-70 gr. as if not at least double the energy of a subsonic 22LR, why bother?) 6.5T to 8T .224 barrels are relatively common. Also, there are numerous published loads for subsonic .223 loads, even up to 75gr bullets in 9T rifles (not sure I believe that one . . .). Apparently, primer selection can be more important than usual (CCI BR’s NFG?), and bullet coating (i.e. moly) is discussed as advantageous. As you are probably aware, there are commercially available (good luck!) subsonic .223 ammos with 55gr. bullets, and 77 gr. bullets (7T required for the 77’s at 1050 fps). I would think developing a reasonably accurate .223 load for an 8T or 9T barrel using 55-65gr. varmint bullets with good expansion characteristics would not be too difficult, or require little if any specialized equipment.

lazarus - A subsonic .223 load is not in my scope of interest for personal development, but if you were really serious about attempting this, I could moly-coat some bullets for you.

KRC said:

"thrashing out concepts , and trying experemental things for the curiosity and knowledge seeking"

Of the “interesting results”

1 - The 221Fireball, with its factory 14T twist, will NOT be a subsonic option.

2 – Just by twist calculator numbers only it looks like a 70-ish grain bullet will marginally stabilize in an 8T barrel at ~900fps. (I chose 60-70 gr. as if not at least double the energy of a subsonic 22LR, why bother?) 6.5T to 8T .224 barrels are relatively common. Also, there are numerous published loads for subsonic .223 loads, even up to 75gr bullets in 9T rifles (not sure I believe that one . . .). Apparently, primer selection can be more important than usual (CCI BR’s NFG?), and bullet coating (i.e. moly) is discussed as advantageous. As you are probably aware, there are commercially available (good luck!) subsonic .223 ammos with 55gr. bullets, and 77 gr. bullets (7T required for the 77’s at 1050 fps). I would think developing a reasonably accurate .223 load for an 8T or 9T barrel using 55-65gr. varmint bullets with good expansion characteristics would not be too difficult, or require little if any specialized equipment.

lazarus - A subsonic .223 load is not in my scope of interest for personal development, but if you were really serious about attempting this, I could moly-coat some bullets for you.

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Thanks! And apologies to all. I thought I had replied, but the kraken ate my post. Yeah I was thinking that a 64-77gr .224 boat tail bullet (or even flat base if I needed it for stability) spitzer bullet at 1050fps is going to carry between about two thirds to double the energy at 100yds with a reasonable difference in drop compared to a 45gr .223 rebated tail flat base bullet at 970fps.

The ballistic coefficient difference is about double. And I’d bet it is going to tumble right away being that close to the edge of stability and long.

And for cheaper plinking, 55gr would still carry 20-30% more energy at 100yds with less drop scooting at 1050fps out of the barrel compared to that 45 at 970fps.

Of course an issue is no commodity bullets will expand at those velocities vs 22lr subs where there are some that are designed to expand well. So I’d need to cast my own if I want something to expand at those low velocities. But that isn’t likely an insurmountable issue.

And one HUGE difference is the wind drift is massively less. Maybe I am badly wrong, because of course I haven’t shot that, but that seems like it takes impossible shots out to 100yds with 22 subs on a windy day in to the realm of a difficult shot.

Sure it isn’t suddenly a 200yd rifle for varmints firing subs.

It is really just a “gee that would be neat”. I like subsonic suppressed shooting a lot. And yeah, like I said, I’ll likely get a 300BO (likely Ruger American ranch) at some point. But still back to needing less lead to cast subs. And if I am buying commodity bullets .224 are cheaper than .308 subs. Of course no dedicated subsonic .224 bullets. But 55gr FMJ and 62gr FMJ are pretty danger cheap if I just want something to plink with out of the platform using a can. And that should stabilize fine with a 1:7 barrel. Even if I can push 70gr+ boat tail bullets. I do need to see what .224 cavities I could get for lead. Just to see what options I’d have. It would be really interesting if there were hollow point .224 cavity in the 64 or so grain range. Though I could always modify the bullets after casting and before or after swaging.

Brought up expense &hassle , because it would involve fast twist bbl blanks , turned to a profile , fitted to your action , and chambered for .22 Hornet/ .218 Bee/ .22 Jet/ etc . And unless above bbl profiling was exact duplication of a previous bbl , fit stock to new bbl.

Can this be done ? Yeah , but it's a major project .

For *simple * , options include :

Fastest twist readily available .223 bolt rifle ( several 1:9 , have to search for 7 ) . Progressively download as slow with 55gr as retain acceptable accuracy . ( Or 45/46 bullets intended for Hornet can go slower , but their more expensive than generic 55gr .)

.22WMR , and stalk closer .

I shoot 22 hornet and a number of others. The 222 Rem might be your best bet. It is accurate, not as loud as 223, uses low charge weights, and not hard on barrels. My hornet is a tack driver but doesnt do well with heavy bullets and 150 yds is about it for groundhog hunting. Another option is a fireball. While i dont have the 221, I do shoot a 20 Vartarg (necked down 221) and its a tack driver. I get 3800 fps with 18 gr of N120 and group measured in thousandths. If you plan on jumping from light to heavy bullets then you narrow the field quite a bit as those I mentioned wont do heavy very well IME. 222 Rem seems like a good fit for you.