Bolt vs. Semi target rifle

smokey · Nov 25, 2012

I don't really have a "long-distance precision rifle" in the collection yet. I was considering a tikka t3 varmint, t/c venture, 700 varmint, vanguard sub MOA, and savage varmint....all in .308. It was difficult sorting out advantages of each platform when many claimed .5 MOA with handloads from any of them(especially the tikka). It seems to get much better than that(consistently...noting that each of the rifles above may group better or worse depending on how that individual rifle came off the firing line), would require a good amount of detail work to true everything, get consistent bedding, to tighten up the chamber...etc.

So here's where I want to open a discussion of pros and cons from knowledgeable folk on this forum...in real-world applications, where .5 MOA is probably good enough to fall within the shooter error variable, is the bolt-gun a thing of the past. It's pretty easy to get an AR platform to shoot .5 or better with mild work from a competent smith. Toss a heavy barrel on, tighten up the lead and chamber, float the barrel, properly fit the lugs and bolt...etc and you can get .5 MOA in something semi-automatic with a detachable mag and lots of user ergonomic enhancements.

It seems a semi-auto precision rig can have lots of real-world(hunting/defense) advantages over a bolt gun precision rig. It also seems for target poking, you've got to control lots of variables for accuracy advantages of a properly built bolt gun to punk a well-built semi.

What say you?

Russ D · Nov 25, 2012

I have some very good shooting semis but if I had to choose I would take the custom bolt gun every time for pure accuracy. They just seem to be more consistent and easier to shoot.

Calengor · Nov 25, 2012

Standing by for E. Shell to drop some knowledge.

sheat36 · Nov 25, 2012

For accuracy sake, I would take the bolt action every time. With the bolt action, you don't have to worry about the semi's action cycling and adding to the recoil. MY PREFERENCE ONLY!!!

IndispensableDestiny · Nov 25, 2012

If you reload, there's a lot more you can do with the ammunition with a bolt than with a semi. Neck sizing only, shoulder bumping only (Forster makes such a die), longer than magazine length cartridges, etc, etc. With a semi, you need to full length resize each time. If you have a body die, you can also then fool with the neck tension with a neck bushing die.

IndispensableDestiny · Nov 25, 2012

sheat36 said:
With the bolt action, you don't have to worry about the semi's action cycling and adding to the recoil.

A semi's cycling action subtracts from the recoil, especially if it is a gas operated gun.

smokey · Nov 25, 2012

Russ D said:
I have some very good shooting semis but if I had to choose I would take the custom bolt gun every time for pure accuracy. They just seem to be more consistent and easier to shoot.

I was hoping you'd swing by. As far as consistency goes, with a bolt you move your body a lot to work the action and then get settled back to position. Do you think semi's offer any advantage by allowing a shooter to stay in position and just deal with recoil and the trigger? Do you think it changes between beginning shooters who are still having a hard time getting in to a consistent body position compared to an experienced shooter who is able to be more consistent in how they interact with the gun? Also, what kind of accuracy gains are you getting when moving from a good semi to a good bolt? Is there an accuracy performance v. cost comparison that gives a significant advantage to bolt guns for raw accuracy/$?

(I'm full of questions tonight. I haven't tried to pull knowledge out of more experienced folk on here in a while)

smokey · Nov 25, 2012

IndispensableDestiny said:
If you reload, there's a lot more you can do with the ammunition with a bolt than with a semi. Neck sizing only, shoulder bumping only (Forster makes such a die), longer than magazine length cartridges, etc, etc. With a semi, you need to full length resize each time. If you have a body die, you can also then fool with the neck tension with a neck bushing die.

Good comments on reloading differences. I hadn't given that as much thought as it warrants. Of course, longer than magazine length cartridges could also be fed through the ejection port individually on many semi-autos. Depending on how the chamber is cut with regard to length of lead to the rifling, and distance you're shooting, would the longer loadings give much advantage? If you're looking inside of 600 yds or so, a shorter bullet that settles down quicker fed into a chamber with a lead purpose-cut to be shorter for that load could be a better choice right? or am I way off?

GNLaFrance · Nov 25, 2012

IndispensableDestiny said:
A semi's cycling action subtracts from the recoil, especially if it is a gas operated gun.

General Hatcher doesn't agree. Download Hatcher's Notebook and read Part I, Chapters XI and XII.

IndispensableDestiny · Nov 25, 2012

GNLaFrance said:
General Hatcher doesn't agree. Download Hatcher's Notebook and read Part I, Chapters XI and XII.

Hatcher writes about the effect of the recoil on the rifle's action. He does not write about felt recoil, which is what I was referring to. Any energy used to move the bolt, compress a spring, etc., is energy that is not transferred to the shooter's shoulder.

GNLaFrance · Nov 25, 2012

IndispensableDestiny said:
Hatcher writes about the effect of the recoil on the rifle's action. He does not write about felt recoil, which is what I was referring to. Any energy used to move the bolt, compress a spring, etc., is energy that is not transferred to the shooter's shoulder.

He writes quite a bit about felt recoil. You're splitting hairs here. Whatever.

alucard0822 · Nov 26, 2012

All else being equal a semi will be faster, no bolt to cycle, no need to break the cheekweld, and sometimes you can see the impact through the scope, and figure out a holdover/windage right away for a followup shot. What is debateable is the difference in accuracy of each, and what practical accuracy is needed for a realistic application, for most 1MOA groups are above the skill of all but the best shooters in the best conditions, it takes time to achieve, and is overkill for anything but long range competition. IMO bolt rifles can be fun, they can also handle certain cartridges that wouldn't be as practical in a semi, and can be simpler and lighter, but they give up a ton of speed for relatively minor positive attributes in lighter short action calibers, and as technology moves forward the few advantages of bolt rifles are fading quick.

byf43 · Nov 26, 2012

Bolt vs. Semi-auto:

Speaking solely from personal experience, the bolt gun is easier to get to shoot tighter groups, than a semi-auto is.

Case in point - I have a couple bolt guns that are capable of sub-MOA groups at 200 yards (and beyond) - IF I do my part.
The only thing(s) I've done to them, is scope mounts/rings/scope.

I also have a couple semi-autos that are extremely accurate, and shoot sub-MOA at 200 yards and beyond - IF I do my part.
One is a Colt AR-HBAR. I got verrrrrrry lucky with this rifle. It's "box stock".
(I now have a scope on this rifle.)

The other semi-auto is an 'early' SAI M1A.
It started out life as a "Standard". It is now comparable to a "Super Match" without the rear lug.
The original owner of this fine rifle has over $5k invested in this magnificient rifle. (I didn't pay anywhere near that amount for it.)

IMNSHO, if you want to shoot long(er) ranges. . . . go with a bolt gun.
Remington and Savage come to mind, first.
Then, scope mount/rings/glass. Buy good glass. I don't necessarily join the group that says that you need to spend as much on glass as you do for the rifle, but, you do need to buy 'good' glass.
I've had great experience(s) with Nikon glass in the last several years.
Some of my friends will use nothing but Leupold.

Kingjamez · Nov 26, 2012

GNLaFrance said:
General Hatcher doesn't agree. Download Hatcher's Notebook and read Part I, Chapters XI and XII.

No offense to General Hatcher, but simple physics are all that's needed here. Given the same amount of energy produced by the firing of the cartridge, some of that energy is used to cycle the action in a semi auto. In a bolt it all goes into the stock. No need to get fancy.

As to bolt vs. semi. Both can be exceptionally accurate. It all depends how much you want to spend. In general for guns capable of less than 1MOA. I'd estimate that to get the same accuracy out of a semi auto AR308 platform, you will spend 2.5-3x the price you'd spend on a bolt action. If you accept accuracy of 1 MOA or greater, the price gap closes very quickly.

Now move to a FNAR, and that 2.5-3x also rapidly reduces as well, but you loose the modularity of the AR platform.

-Jim

smokey · Nov 26, 2012

Kingjamez said:
No offense to General Hatcher, but simple physics are all that's needed here. Given the same amount of energy produced by the firing of the cartridge, some of that energy is used to cycle the action in a semi auto. In a bolt it all goes into the stock. No need to get fancy.

As to bolt vs. semi. Both can be exceptionally accurate. It all depends how much you want to spend. In general for guns capable of less than 1MOA. I'd estimate that to get the same accuracy out of a semi auto AR308 platform, you will spend 2.5-3x the price you'd spend on a bolt action. If you accept accuracy of 1 MOA or greater, the price gap closes very quickly.

Now move to a FNAR, and that 2.5-3x also rapidly reduces as well, but you loose the modularity of the AR platform.

-Jim

ahhhh, the fnar...That does tend to close the gap pretty rapidly.

Jerry M · Nov 29, 2012

I suggest you contact Ed Shell, here on the forum, who is teaching long range shooting in VA. Shoot with him and discuss options.

Tell him I sent you: he will charge you $50 MORE!

Good luck

Jerry

Russ D · Nov 29, 2012

smokey0118 said:
I was hoping you'd swing by. As far as consistency goes, with a bolt you move your body a lot to work the action and then get settled back to position. Do you think semi's offer any advantage by allowing a shooter to stay in position and just deal with recoil and the trigger? Do you think it changes between beginning shooters who are still having a hard time getting in to a consistent body position compared to an experienced shooter who is able to be more consistent in how they interact with the gun? Also, what kind of accuracy gains are you getting when moving from a good semi to a good bolt? Is there an accuracy performance v. cost comparison that gives a significant advantage to bolt guns for raw accuracy/$?

(I'm full of questions tonight. I haven't tried to pull knowledge out of more experienced folk on here in a while)

I think the biggest factor is being able to reload to tighter tolerances, and not have to worry about feeding issues in the semi. There are also a few issues many seem to have when shooting semi's like proper cheek weld and pistol grips. Wrapping your thumb around the pistol grip is usually bad for good groups with an AR. With proper practice and a good set up cheek weld can be corrected, but it needs to be a serious concern when choosing a stock and optic mount. For the most part bolt guns are easier to get a properly aligned set up if you know what you are doing.

Now having said all that, in almost any real world scenario I would choose the semi. Unless I need to make a one shot hit on a tiny target from extreme distance, I can do everything with the semi but faster and with less effort. The funny thing is I go back and forth on what to bring to the range. If I shoot semis more I'll eventually go back to the bolts for a while and vice versa.

Russ D · Nov 29, 2012

smokey0118 said:
ahhhh, the fnar...That does tend to close the gap pretty rapidly.

I've shot two of these and neither was even close to what I can do with the AR's I built for 3gun. Both struggled to hold 1 moa with me shooting. I've had complete newbs shoot sub moa with my ARs.

Bolt vs. Semi target rifle

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