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  • Blaster229

    God loves you, I don't.
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 14, 2010
    46,409
    Glen Burnie
    I didn't say sims had no value. I just think dry-fire has more value for what he's trying to do.

    I think he is wanting to start a business running SIMS scenarios, with a shoot house and all.
    It's terrible to do scenarios with dry fire yelling "bang bang" at the bad guys. :)
     

    hubbarddanny

    Member
    Oct 4, 2013
    48
    Severn
    Dry-fire has huge amounts of value, and is a much better plan than this simunitions thing. If you want to keep yourself honest, buy a MantisX.

    Dry fire is really useful; however, firing any type of projectile and seeing shot placement is always a much better tool. MantisX used with UTM would be far more useful. But training wise for beginners and novice shooters looking to improve skills, UTM will work wonders. I have been teaching for 14 yrs and have used several techniques and I found that UTM's are far better then dry fire alone. Using UTM is a step above utilizing airsoft. Watch https://youtu.be/qQDfwyUgtjg this will give you an idea of what I'm talking about. Please know I'm not saying you're wrong, just it's not what I'm looking to accomplish.
     

    Blaster229

    God loves you, I don't.
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 14, 2010
    46,409
    Glen Burnie
    Dry fire is really useful; however, firing any type of projectile and seeing shot placement is always a much better tool. MantisX used with UTM would be far more useful. But training wise for beginners and novice shooters looking to improve skills, UTM will work wonders. I have been teaching for 14 yrs and have used several techniques and I found that UTM's are far better then dry fire alone. Using UTM is a step above utilizing airsoft. Watch https://youtu.be/qQDfwyUgtjg this will give you an idea of what I'm talking about. Please know I'm not saying you're wrong, just it's not what I'm looking to accomplish.
    I taught a 16 year old girl, who never picked up a pistol in her life, to consistently shoot this hostage target with my VP9. Took about an hour.
    No special training thingies.
    e1414b913722ac1bf08e1d4291437a28.jpg
     

    hubbarddanny

    Member
    Oct 4, 2013
    48
    Severn
    I think he is wanting to start a business running SIMS scenarios, with a shoot house and all.
    It's terrible to do scenarios with dry fire yelling "bang bang" at the bad guys. :)

    No, my business is crawl walk run. Dry fire, blanks, Target rounds. Plus getting an HQL requires you safely handle the weapon, load a magazine, load the weapon, and effectively fire 1 rd in a safe direction. I want to have my shooters fire an actual course of fire with reloads and shooting with barricades. No shoot house scenarios for HQL. That will come later...lol
     

    Blaster229

    God loves you, I don't.
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 14, 2010
    46,409
    Glen Burnie
    No, my business is crawl walk run. Dry fire, blanks, Target rounds. Plus getting an HQL requires you safely handle the weapon, load a magazine, load the weapon, and effectively fire 1 rd in a safe direction. I want to have my shooters fire an actual course of fire with reloads and shooting with barricades. No shoot house scenarios for HQL. That will come later...lol

    Why shoot reloads and barricades with UTM and not live rounds? It really defeats the purpose of SIMS/UTM training.
     

    hubbarddanny

    Member
    Oct 4, 2013
    48
    Severn
    Why shoot reloads and barricades with UTM and not live rounds? It really defeats the purpose of SIMS/UTM training.

    UTM is meant as way to train safely and anywhere. The whole purpose of UTM is training. Doesnt matter how you use it. Like I said before, crawl walk run. Once they "qualify" and they want to progress, then you move to shoot house scenarios. They need to learn basics before you train tactics. But you can train however you want and I'll train how I want. So far training military and law enforcement for 14 yrs in a similar manner has worked just fine for me. Also taught my son when he was 9 to out shoot his uncle who I also taught. Sorry I dont know why we are comparing manhood here...lol. Everyone has their own preferred method of teaching and learning and as an instructor....I am still ALWAYS learning new ways and methods.
     

    Blaster229

    God loves you, I don't.
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 14, 2010
    46,409
    Glen Burnie
    UTM is meant as way to train safely and anywhere. The whole purpose of UTM is training. Doesnt matter how you use it. Like I said before, crawl walk run. Once they "qualify" and they want to progress, then you move to shoot house scenarios. They need to learn basics before you train tactics. But you can train however you want and I'll train how I want. So far training military and law enforcement for 14 yrs in a similar manner has worked just fine for me. Also taught my son when he was 9 to out shoot his uncle who I also taught. Sorry I dont know why we are comparing manhood here...lol. Everyone has their own preferred method of teaching and learning and as an instructor....I am still ALWAYS learning new ways and methods.

    I really didn't make my point. What I was saying I guess is that training aids are not needed to teach someone. But they are valuable in order for trained people to keep those skills up if they can't actually shoot.

    However, with the plethera of places out there who train the HQL with 1 shot, you do realize the longer and more in depth you go with your training, time and cost increases. Pretty sure most will opt for the 1 shot, 4 hour day or whatever it is. You're talking at least 8 hours or more.
    I know I would need a good, full day to teach "properly" and would have to charge 500 bucks, if I was going to use all that UTM and barricades and all.

    I thought all this out before and just realized that, especially Maryland is not range/ training friendly the place where people would not drop that kind of cash for something, where they get get the HQL for much cheaper.
     

    hubbarddanny

    Member
    Oct 4, 2013
    48
    Severn
    I really didn't make my point. What I was saying I guess is that training aids are not needed to teach someone. But they are valuable in order for trained people to keep those skills up if they can't actually shoot.

    However, with the plethera of places out there who train the HQL with 1 shot, you do realize the longer and more in depth you go with your training, time and cost increases. Pretty sure most will opt for the 1 shot, 4 hour day or whatever it is. You're talking at least 8 hours or more.
    I know I would need a good, full day to teach "properly" and would have to charge 500 bucks, if I was going to use all that UTM and barricades and all.

    I thought all this out before and just realized that, especially Maryland is not range/ training friendly the place where people would not drop that kind of cash for something, where they get get the HQL for much cheaper.

    You do know that I train beginner classes for the military and accomplish all the "in depth" training in less than 4 hrs? A basic pistol class doesnt take 8 hrs. Barricades are part of a basic class. Shooting around a doorway, over a table/short partition and kneeling is a basic class for the military and all can be done in 4 hrs. If you(generally speaking) take 8 hrs to teach basics like that or draw, grip, sight alignment/sight picture and trigger press then you're doing something wrong. Training aides are always useful for beginners and novice shooters because everyone learns differently and they help solidify the training. And taking any type of class, instructors use training aides so I dont know where you get that idea from.( sorry if that sounds rude.)

    Now for what I plan on doing, the most I would charge is around $300. That will include, weapon, ammo, fingerprinting (eventually), and convenience fee for coming to you and not having to go to a range. Also can cover home firearm safety for your family.
     

    Blaster229

    God loves you, I don't.
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 14, 2010
    46,409
    Glen Burnie
    You do know that I train beginner classes for the military and accomplish all the "in depth" training in less than 4 hrs? A basic pistol class doesnt take 8 hrs. Barricades are part of a basic class. Shooting around a doorway, over a table/short partition and kneeling is a basic class for the military and all can be done in 4 hrs. If you(generally speaking) take 8 hrs to teach basics like that or draw, grip, sight alignment/sight picture and trigger press then you're doing something wrong. Training aides are always useful for beginners and novice shooters because everyone learns differently and they help solidify the training. And taking any type of class, instructors use training aides so I dont know where you get that idea from.( sorry if that sounds rude.)



    Now for what I plan on doing, the most I would charge is around $300. That will include, weapon, ammo, fingerprinting (eventually), and convenience fee for coming to you and not having to go to a range. Also can cover home firearm safety for your family.
    What are "beginner classes for the military"? That's basic training, right?
     

    hubbarddanny

    Member
    Oct 4, 2013
    48
    Severn
    What are "beginner classes for the military"? That's basic training, right?

    Beginner classes are initial/recurring training. Nobody in the USAF fires the pistol in basic. They only fire rifle. Cops and Special Force units shoot during initial training, all others get to their first base and only fire pistol if they are Officers or deploying to the sandbox with dual weapons(rifle/pistol).
     

    miles71

    Ultimate Member
    Industry Partner
    Jul 19, 2009
    2,522
    Belcamp, Md.
    False. Talked to them yesterday. Also, it's in their policies for HQL. Have the policy.

    I'm glad you have that advisory, I spoke to them as well and was told by the LD commander UTM ammo was not oked. Just another example of multiple answers to the same question. I like your answer better lol

    Wish they would drop the "one shot" anyway, lots of reasons it's stupid.

    TD
     

    hubbarddanny

    Member
    Oct 4, 2013
    48
    Severn
    I'm glad you have that advisory, I spoke to them as well and was told by the LD commander UTM ammo was not oked. Just another example of multiple answers to the same question. I like your answer better lol

    Wish they would drop the "one shot" anyway, lots of reasons it's stupid.

    TD

    1 shot is a minimum....I make my students fire 50 max. I also make them shoot a course of fire like I do my military students. But I agree....stupid
     

    Blaster229

    God loves you, I don't.
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 14, 2010
    46,409
    Glen Burnie
    1 shot is a minimum....I make my students fire 50 max. I also make them shoot a course of fire like I do my military students. But I agree....stupid

    If all I wanted was an HQL, I would never go to a 50 round class that takes longer than the state minimum.

    Not sure what 50 rounds does that 1round doesn't.
     

    hubbarddanny

    Member
    Oct 4, 2013
    48
    Severn
    If all I wanted was an HQL, I would never go to a 50 round class that takes longer than the state minimum.

    Not sure what 50 rounds does that 1round doesn't.

    If you have never shot before it helps build confidence. What does 1 shot do? Plus you dont even need to HIT a target with the 1 shot. Anyway. I dont know why I'm debating. You are free to do what you want. And if my business doesnt go anywhere that's on me. The joys of free will. If people want to only do the bare minimum, they can.
     

    erwos

    The Hebrew Hammer
    MDS Supporter
    Mar 25, 2009
    13,866
    Rockville, MD
    So I was banned for awhile because somehow ads were posted and linked to my account... but to respond to this...UTMs are accurate out to roughly 75ft (25yds) and have you ever used them. Also, dry fire is great and so is the Mantis X hell you can even use the Mantis X10 with UTM rounds and get the benefit of dry fire with rounds on target. But you guys are knocking something neither of you have ACTUALLY used or tried! Why don't you give it a shot(pun intended)! If the NRA is selling them for shooting enthusiasts are you saying the NRA is wrong as well? I use dry fire and will be utilizing the Mantis system in tandem with UTM rounds, but I can use all of this from a person's home or backyard or office. This is all meant for beginners or shooters who want 1 on 1 and not have to fight the noise of the range.

    I've used sims before. I am absolutely comfortable saying the NRA is wrong, too. UTMs are also no more legal to discharge than actual "real" cartridges, so I'm not entirely sure how they're helpful off the range.

    Sent from my SM-G981U1 using Tapatalk
     

    hubbarddanny

    Member
    Oct 4, 2013
    48
    Severn
    I've used sims before. I am absolutely comfortable saying the NRA is wrong, too. UTMs are also no more legal to discharge than actual "real" cartridges, so I'm not entirely sure how they're helpful off the range.

    Sent from my SM-G981U1 using Tapatalk
    Well to each his own. I will continue to use UTM products along with dry fire and Mantis X products. If you don't find them useful....cool. Doesn't mean I don't and the people I have taught using them don't either.
     

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